Wizard needs help. It is among the worst damage class in the game right now

Bullet

Apostate not necessarily. As in generically, no. If there is something specific for the class, maybe.

Kirrund

Gold I find it simultaneously amusing and juvenile. The truth is Fell posts in every thread and lends no credit to players of classes he hasn't played, because he's the only expert in every class, and can't imagine someone who has played longer than him or done more than him. Go through his post history, where many of them are him insulting people asking if english is their second language or if they have brain damage and other passive aggresiveness. Maybe you don't care about that and that's fine, but he's quickly gaining a reputation of an entirely unserious person in any thread.

To be on topic, he's obviously not a wizard because his sustained PPS (post per second) is very high, but then also if certain names show up he starts posting in bursts all at once. He needs a cooldown on the post button, otherwise why play wizard or druid?

Velthorian

Kirrund Well, fellow certainly likes to be contrarian, that's for sure, almost like a sport. Needs to get the last word in.

Raybane

Fell That would assume that the very specific condition that the group specifically needs the Wizards CC no more or no less. That would be an extremely rare occasion. The problem here is that Wizard utility is about 5% of the utility of an Enchanter and even if we double that to 10% so doesn't that warrant losing 40% sustained damage. This is extra ironic as your argument for Enchanters is that need to do even more sustained damage then Wizards, but still have that much more utility, just in case that utility isn't needed. If anything so should you hope they buff Wizards as without that so is there simply no room for Enchanters to do any damage at all balance wise.

Even if we totally ignore the extremely valuable group buffs of an Enchanter so would it be extremely generous to value the CC/burst utility of a Wizard to 20% of an Enchanter. Does 5 Wizards match 1 Enchanter plus 4 imaginary DPS with zero add handling ability? I don't actually know of any class that can't either use CC ability or simply face tank an add or two. But for this math to add up so would an Enchanter need to do Zero damage and a Wizard get buffed to 80% sustained damage and that while totally ignoring Enchanter buffs.

The short version is that you better hope they decide CC isn't worth that much and buff up Wizard damage quite a lot or else hope they don't look at Enchanter at all as only nerfs would be in the future if Wizard is where the power level should be.

Fell

Raybane That would assume that the very specific condition that the group specifically needs the Wizards CC no more or no less. That would be an extremely rare occasion.

Except it isn't rare. Because a wizard is never the only person in group who has some CC ability-- you also have monk, SK, necro, bard, rogue, paladin, spellblade, archer, cleric, druid -- all can FD split, single-target mez, and/or root or snare mobs. When you have 2-3 of these in a group, you don't need an enchanter to break any camp in the game outside of FW.

And of course, that ignores the fact that 98% of the time in game you're at a camp that's already broken -- and thus zero CC is even required.

Raybane ven if we totally ignore the extremely valuable group buffs of an Enchanter

Except a shaman can also haste, some classes have self-buffs that allow them to nearly reach the regen an enchanter gives them, and elementalists and even inquisitors can group mana regen. It doesn't match enchanter regen, but when it allows you to add a high-dmg DPS class in place of an enchanter doing 20% of that, its worth it -- if you even need the mana regen because you're in a primarily-melee group.

This is extra ironic as your argument for Enchanters is that need to do even more sustained damage then Wizards

Why misrepresent my statements? I've never said anything remotely close to this.

Fell

Kirrund Fell posts in every thread... because he's the only expert in every class,

I appreciate the compliment, but there are several classes I know little to nothing about. Wizard, however, isn't one of them.

Raybane

Fell

Except it isn't rare. Because a wizard is never the only person in group who has some CC ability-- you also have monk, SK, necro, bard, rogue, paladin, spellblade, archer, cleric, druid -- all can FD split, single-target mez, and/or root or snare mobs. When you have 2-3 of these in a group, you don't need an enchanter to break any camp in the game outside of FW.
And of course, that ignores the fact that 98% of the time in game you're at a camp that's already broken -- and thus zero CC is even required.

It's extremely rare and you even mentioned one of those examples towards the end. If no CC is needed then the Wizard CC is also not needed. The specific situation where Wizard CC would be exactly what a group needs, no more or no less, is extremely rare. The group having 2-3 of those classes you mentioned would also mean that they wouldn't need a Wizard either.

Fell Except a shaman can also haste, some classes have self-buffs that allow them to nearly reach the regen an enchanter gives them, and elementalists and even inquisitors can group mana regen. It doesn't match enchanter regen, but when it allows you to add a high-dmg DPS class in place of an enchanter doing 20% of that, its worth it -- if you even need the mana regen because you're in a primarily-melee group.

Except I specifically discounted buffs. But if you think Enchanter buffs are so bad so can we give them to Wizards instead and as they are worth so little so is no compensation needed. Then we can get back to buffing Wizard as the class didn't actually get anything of value while Enchanter is still fine.

Note how none of those examples are called Wizard. And also, calling Inquisitor a high dam DPS class is stretching things quite a lot. Just as you are making quite a lot of out of a very weak mana drain skill. Enchanters out damage Inquisitors right now making your envy a bit misplaced.

Fell Why misrepresent my statements? I've never said anything remotely close to this.

Someone using your name have been calling for Enchanters charmed pets to have 175% of regular pets damage and that would out dps Wizards, even if you don't realize that.

Fell

Raybane It's extremely rare and you even mentioned one of those examples towards the end. If no CC is needed then the Wizard CC is also not needed.

CC is far from a wizard's only utility. Their burst DPS on tough named is invaluable (and I strongly favor making it even more so) and their ability to boost the damage of other casters in group is likewise very compelling. And of course a wizard is a fantastic time saver when you're leaving camp and don't need to clear back out because the wizard can port everyone. Don't discount this-- I've literally had many people refuse to join a group for a particular goal ... until they were told the group could port them there and back.

Raybane It's extremely rare

If you truly believe that camps that don't require CC are "extremely rare", then you're not playing the same game as the rest of us.

Raybane

Fell Burst dps is a form of CC in that it eliminates the enemy quickly. But it's far less strong then what an Enchanter brings.

Ports are out of combat quality of life feature, but Enchanters also have that in not only the buffs, but there are also the enchant metal spell. Out of combat utility can on the other and also be provided by people outside the group. This was one of the reasons why I showed that even if we discount buffs so are Encanter as they are right now much more wanted in groups then Wizards and that it would be true even if Enchanter did Zero damage and Wizards got a buff to damage.

And no, you are the one that thinks Wizard CC is always needed, not me. The problem is that you are arguing that Enchanter CC is rarely needed, but for some reason so are Wizard CC always needed. Just as Wizard CC makes you think Wizards should do low damage, but Enchanter needs to match dps classes despite having much more CC. Pick one, either CC is highly valuable or it's not.

WhiskyJack

Raybane We all know it both and neither and sometimes just a little bit unless it's a lot. All based on what forum you are in and what position is being attacked. Sometimes I feel like we are all reading Dr. Sues M&M edditon.

Fell

Raybane Burst dps is a form of CC in that it eliminates the enemy quickly. But it's far less strong then what an Enchanter brings.

On the contrary, burst damage is a permanent solution: mez is only temporary. Burst also works on named mobs, while enchanter mez and stun do not. There are at least three camps in MnM where you can get two linked named on a single pull. Would you rather have a wizard to burn down one named, or an enchanter to twiddle their thumbs?

Ports are out of combat quality of life feature,

Ports get you to and from combat faster, and allow you more time to actually perform that combat. And, as I noted already, they are a factor at times at whether or not wizards get a group invite. If you think "ports don't count", how about we strip from wizards and give them to mages?

[Ports] also can be provided by people outside the group.

You see a lot of people get ported OUT of a deep dungeon camp by someone not in their group?

you are the one that thinks Wizard CC is always needed, not me.

Sigh, why do you persist in continually pretending I said things I haven't? Which part of this simple statement are you struggling with: "CC is rarely needed, and when it is needed, it can often be done via the CC tools that other classes have."

Raybane

WhiskyJack Sure, but it's a bit too biased when the same person argues that it's both worthless or worth a lot, depending on the class being discussed.

skoop

Fell

I've seen plenty of wizards burst without drawing aggro, or, more precisely, time their nukes so that the second-to-last nuke draws aggro, while the last one hits about the time the mob reaches the wizard.

I'm sure that seemed so epic in your head.

In practice, this means the wizard is holding back (ie doing less dps than the already extremely subpar sustain dps they were doing), making the fight seem to take longer (which add stress, keep in mind the scenario you're imagining: "holy sh*t we're in trouble where's our wizard to burst down and save us") only to hope the timing works otherwise they're dead (basically a russian roulette version of the old execute mechanic which was already janky as f). Meanwhile after that second-to-last nuke, the tank still has 4-5 mobs they're trying to juggle, the healer is frantically trying to keep the tank up and all of the sudden the wizard takes aggro and rolls the dice.

Gee, what a smart move that was to pick a wizard to join us, we're so lucky to have a class that can burst in our group.

This isn't "smart" or "competent" gameplay, it's chaos. Once again you need to understand that this idea is detached from the reality of this game. There could be games were this works, this isn't that game. They could change the game to have it your way, but that would require an almost complete overhaul of the combat system. It's a colossal waste of time and it's not happening.

FWIW, you're not the first. People were imagining this before the wizard changes, they told us on the class discord forums that we were "ruining the wizard fantasy" by asking for good sustain dmg for wizards. But we all knew where this was going, simply because we can clearly see how this game actually plays...

Fell

Raybane Sure, but it's a bit too biased when the same person argues that it's both worthless or worth a lot,

I realize that when you're losing a debate badly, how attractive it is to throw up strawman arguments like this, but my position has been perfectly consistent across all forums. It's right there in my post above:

CC is rarely needed, and when it is needed, it can often be done via the CC tools that other classes have."

You were the one who made the claim that enchanters should be fine with doing 1/5 the damage of a DPS class because "CC is so important". I don't even particularly disagree with enchanter damage being that low -- I merely pointed out that when crowd control IS needed, it can usually be done by a wizard or some other non-CC class. I've said that in this forum and in the enchanter forum as well. Now for the last time -- stop intentionally lying to try to win an argument.

Fell

skoop In practice, this [burst] means the wizard is holding back (ie doing less dps than the already extremely subpar sustain dps they were doing),

Sorry, no. A lot of wizards for some reason believe that, if they're not staying at or near OOM, they're somehow losing damage. This is a hard math fail. Mathematically, a wizard should always try to keep their at the point they'll med to FM just as the next pull arrives. If you have some unpredictable variance in pull frequency, then slightly below that. The notion that you need to keep yourself low mana or you're "losing out" is one that needs serious correction.

skoop Meanwhile after that second-to-last nuke, the tank still has 4-5 mobs

If you still have "4-5 mobs to juggle" AFTER killing the biggest threat and also no one else to assist with CC, then yes, you're likely dead regardless. That's not the point you thought it was.

The fact remains: a good wizard can save a group with burst damage.... if they know how to use it properly. Usually that's by taking out fast the named that's doing much more damage than the couple of loose adds you have with it. Sometimes its because you saved the healer from going OOM because you turned a 90 second fight into a 30 second fight by taking out easier adds with 2 quick nukes as soon as the tank got a good aggro lock on them.

The true irony here is that people pick the wizard class BECAUSE of their burst damage. If you didn't like seeing those big booms, you'd play archer or mage.

Raybane

Fell

Fell I realize that when you're losing a debate badly, how attractive it is to throw up strawman arguments like this, but my position has been perfectly consistent across all forums. It's right there in my post above:

CC is rarely needed, and when it is needed, it can often be done via the CC tools that other classes have."

You were the one who made the claim that enchanters should be fine with doing 1/5 the damage of a DPS class because "CC is so important". I don't even particularly disagree with enchanter damage being that low -- I merely pointed out that when crowd control IS needed, it can usually be done by a wizard or some other non-CC class. I've said that in this forum and in the enchanter forum as well. Now for the last time -- stop intentionally lying to try to win an argument.

Lets recap, you are the one that thinks Wizard damage is fine because of Wizard CC. That CC that somehow makes Wizard wanted in groups, but not Encanters. You are also the one that disagreed with that Wizard CC is not always needed.

That is also why I said that it's fine that Enchanter does little damage as if Wizard CC is worth that much a drop in dps then Encanter CC is worth even more of a drop. I was using your own logic.

It's not that smart of you to accuse others of lying or making shit up when it's all up there for everyone to see.
But now that your arguments are mostly going around in circles and into personal attacks so am I no longer interested in talking with you.

Fell

Raybane Lets recap, you are the one that thinks Wizard damage is fine because of Wizard CC.

Once again: I've never said anything remotely resembling this. You're welcome to quote any or all of my statements -- but do it WORD FOR WORD. I'll happily explain how you misinterpreted my plain English.

A wizard's root is the least of their utility. Their primary utility is the ability to do 18,000 damage in just 30 seconds, far above any other class. They also add enormously to the spell damage of other classes, and have by far the best AOE spells and the ability to tune damage to mitigate a mob's resists that no other caster has.

And before you cry "but AOE is useless now!" -- THAT is the problem wizards should be trying to fix. Not trying to transform wizards into archers, shooting arrows named "fireball".

skoop

Fell

Sorry, no. A lot of wizards for some reason believe that, if they're not staying at or near OOM, they're somehow losing damage. This is a hard math fail. Mathematically, a wizard should always try to keep their at the point they'll med to FM just as the next pull arrives. If you have some unpredictable variance in pull frequency, then slightly below that. The notion that you need to keep yourself low mana or you're "losing out" is one that needs serious correction.

Actually, yes. This just shows your fundamental misunderstanding. I didn't say anything about being OOM, this is all about aggro. He was holding back because if you don't hold back and you try to burst immediately, you get aggro and die. This isn't math, it's simple reality that is clear to anyone who actually played the class in sticky situations. Since you yourself admit you haven't, you should consider some more modesty here.

If you still have "4-5 mobs to juggle" AFTER killing the biggest threat and also no one else to assist with CC, then yes, you're likely dead regardless. That's not the point you thought it was.

I'm not dead regardless, I just don't burst because it's a stupid way to get out of this situation.
Burst is pretty much useless in this game. That's the whole point. You just buried yourself too deep in trying to be "right" that you can't see this simple reality.

The fact remains: a good wizard can save a group with burst damage.... if they know how to use it properly. Usually that's by taking out fast the named that's doing much more damage than the couple of loose adds you have with it. Sometimes its because you saved the healer from going OOM because you turned a 90 second fight into a 30 second fight by taking out easier adds with 2 quick nukes as soon as the tank got a good aggro lock on them.

You're once again confusing facts with fiction. A wizard bursting out a name, without dying, in a manner that actually changes the outcome of the situation is practically nonexistent in this game. And even if you see it once in a blue moon, it's not something that compensates for extremely subpar sustain dmg for 99.9999% of the time played in this game.

Turning a 90 second fight into 30 second fight does not exist in this game. You keep talking about "facts" and "maths", please give me the exact calculation of the baseline dps across the rest of the group, the wizard baseline dps and the delta if they choose to burst (and how long exactly did they need to wait for the tank to have that "good lock on aggre), then show me how that changed the TTK.
Once you're done with that please explain how in the world would it be a better idea to take that wizard instead of 20-30% higher sustain dps class.
If you don't present these calculations at least admit you just make shit up.

The bottom line is, it's not about "how to use it properly", it's about basic game mechanics that you clearly have not encountered yourself, and when presented with these mechanics and how they play out in practice you reply with exposing even more of your misunderstanding of these mechanics.

Fell

skoop This just shows your fundamental misunderstanding. I didn't say anything about being OOM, this is all about aggro. He was holding back because if you don't hold back and you try to burst immediately, you get aggro and die.

Hard logic fail. Quoting your exact words: "In practice, this [burst] means the wizard is holding back (ie doing less dps than the already extremely subpar sustain dps they were doing)" But if you must "hold back" every mob or "otherwise you get aggro and die", then that IS your normal dps, and you're not reducing it. Which is it?

that is clear to anyone who actually played the class in sticky situations. Since you yourself admit you haven't, you should consider some more modesty here.

Facts are facts, regardless of who expresses them. And you're wrong: I've actually played a wizard into the 20s, and never claimed otherwise. More importantly, I've played a good 1500 hours with wizards up to level 60 who were able to use burst effectively to mitigate a bad situation, using a combination of good timing and roots.

Could burst be made more effective? Sure-- and I support that 150%. You help the wizard class by making it more DIFFERENT than other classes, not by mindlessly homogenizing its damage with others.

Fell

skoop Please give me the exact calculation of the baseline dps across the rest of the group, the wizard baseline dps and the delta if they choose to burst (and how long exactly did they need to wait for the tank to have that "good lock on aggre), then show me how that changed the TTK.

Tank (me), cleric (almost OOM), enchanter (dead on the pull), wizard, rogue, rogue. Tank's taunting everything, so weak lock on active mob, rogues have aggro. Wizard nukes active mob twice, gets aggro on second nuke, roots it, backs away, kills it. Waits 10 seconds for more aggro on second mob, repeats the process. Now there's only 1 mob left, tank can hold it, and is now taking less dmg per second than the cleric can regen by medding. Fight ends, cleric resses enchanter, and entire group applauds wizard.

The problem with bad wizards is, because you so rarely see two wizards in a group, they rarely get to see good wizards work.

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