Devs - Do NOT Change the Inquisitor!

NotFlourishing

By and large this class is your most unique and is easily the most well put together class that you currently have. I would be seriously disappointed if you were to make changes to what is already your most balanced and live product worthy class (yes, including the ones you have recently done reworks on/made changes to).

This class is a proper tank that has a well-defined purpose, is efficient at performing that function and is sufficient at performing "normal" tank duties beyond what they excel at. They do not deal an absurd amount of damage (no tank should), they can maintain aggro just fine, and they have superior defensive capabilities that fit into their function. This class is genuinely the best class (not strongest, or overpowered - again, genuinely set for live production/release) you currently have, and it is not even close.

I strongly urge you to not make any changes to this class. If anything, minor balance changes (and even that is truly not required). I, for one, would be seriously disappointed and honestly sad if you do. It is already unique, not overpowered, and performs the clearly intended purpose it has well.

Denerik

There is a lot they can change about the class. No Inq I know uses the casting slow, the torment line is too mana hungry to use, having both mana drain and mana burn is redundant, haste is useful but not really in line with what the class does (and I'm the one who wrote the Reddit thread that advocated for getting it in the first place), spell ward is too niche and effectively useless outside of raid, our auras do not play well with other Inqs in a group (though this could just be visual bugs).

We have some excellent core features that I don't want to see go away - mez, AOE stun, choke, silence. But there is a lot of room for improvement and refinement.

From my reading of the write up we'll be getting a spell steal (something I've wanted for a while now), a mana tap, a group mana twitch, and a mana bubble to aid tanking. All of these sound really interesting and as long as those core abilities are only renamed and not removed, then it will be a welcome change.

As long as they don't go with the silly "eat an enemy buff to restore your HP because Inqs need sustain" suggestion that keeps getting asked on the discord, I think the class will continue to be the most interesting tank in the game.

Des

Glad you're liking the class, but it is no secret why its the most underplayed class in the game and the reasoning that most people post about INQ is that its too specific and there is little to no group utility, and all of its abilities overlap with other classes.

AOE stun - Great, the only thing that sets this class apart.
Mez - Root is just as good, if not better since DPS has a low chance of breaking it instantly. No one ever cared to have me mez anything. Was OK for pulling. However, mezzing a gaggle of mobs mid combat is impossible well into the 20s because channelling is so bad, making the AOE mez required to get 1 mez off.
No Lull somehow, so have to chain mez on larger pulls. Leaves vulnerable to roamers.
Spell specific shields - Other classes have similar, see Deflect and other CDs.
Mana burn - Useless, even after TTK+.
Mana drain - Useless, not enough drain, 1 cast isnt helpful, but 3 is. No time in a fight to do that when you can just kick. A bunch of classes get kick or a stun or even a push.
Haste 50/50 - good if you have no Shaman or Ench but Shaman is the most played class along side Druid.
Nuke costs way too much. 85 mana at 20 is almost 15-20% of your mana bar, depending on how much INT you have.
Worse soloability in the game, by far and even worse than even cleric melee and Fighter.
.....

The list goes on and this post is already too long. If they keep it the way it is, it will remain the worst, least played class in the game. The drip factor is off the charts, but thats about all its got. I completely agree with the rework notes. Delete ENC overlap and give INQ specific dedicated fast casting abilities/spells that are better used in combat. Give them a couple great anti-magic lines, but make them a more aggressive tank to keep with the flavour.

NotFlourishing

Des I would argue that it is only the most underplayed tank because it has the least dps and soloability out of the tanks... which is fine. It is a tank class, and it is not supposed to deal massive amounts of dps (and arguably also should not be able to solo well - see: social, group-focused MMORPG). This class is insanely good as it is right now, and you didn't even point out one of the few major reasons why...

Purifying Blow. This, now that there are significantly less ways to Purge enemies of their buffs compared to months ago, has become an absolute must for any serious group in certain situations. This skill alone will speed up your TTKs, reduce your downtime (if you even have any) due to Mana constraints, and subsequently raise your group's EXP/hr rate through the roof. Combined with everything else they bring to the table, the class feels fantastic in groups, especially against caster-heavy camps (and the raids that are currently disabled).

It isn't even close, in my opinion, that the Inquisitor is the best actual tank in the game because of the additional utility and control that they bring (notice how I am not focusing on dps coming from my TANK). If we want tanks to be able to slot into dps roles, that should come in the form of stances of some sort that actually reduce their capability to tank and their dps should not be comparable to an actual dps class. And to make note about sustain tanks - this should really be a limited capacity if accompanied by the dps capability an SK brings, or made into a primary function of the class as it is the case for Paladins. You should not just be able to solo your way efficiently through the entire game - there should be good reason to want to group, and part of that reason for people who choose to play tanks should be that grouping makes your efficiency while leveling significantly better. If everyone could solo efficiently, why would they ever want to group? But, this is digressing into the other design flaws the game currently has, and is getting away from the point at hand - how Inquisitor fills it's clearly defined function well, and why changing much about it from the current iteration w/could be bad in various ways.

Thinking that Mana Burn and Mana Drain are useless is certainly a take of all time. Both of these are insanely useful and neither of them leave my bar, and I use them all the time (see above - if you ever have Mana issues, it is because you are not utilizing these in conjunction with Purifying Blow vs mobs that are buffing themselves).

Thinking that Mez is bad/impossible to accomplish in a fight is also insane, especially when you compare it to Root. Mobs can use tons of stuff at range (shoot, spells, charges, etc...) now. This comment alone makes me think you have not played the game in a long time, or you really just don't use what is available to you. 15 Mana cost to completely nullify a mob for 30 seconds is absurd value, and tbf if you are getting interrupted constantly, you either a) are not pulling properly, or b) are not using your abilities properly. If you are the puller yourself, you need to pull better... if you are not the puller, you can freely Mez mobs as they come to you/your camp. Even so, if you DO have multiple mobs on you, you can use the Scintillating line to Stun them all, then tab through and Mez.

Having the worst soloability in the game is fine - tbh this should be the case for many classes, since this game is supposedly being designed as a social MMORPG. This isn't Skyrim.

And yes, spell-specific shields are part of why the class is unique and good. This is something that other classes do not specifically get, and as such give reason to your group as to why they would want to slot an Inquisitor over any of the other tank classes. I am taking an Inquisitor, personally, over any of the other tanks in the game, if I get a choice in the matter, solely for the additional crowd control and the spell damage mitigation they bring.

You must be a pretty low level and surely are not focusing on INT if a single nuke is taking up to 20% of your Mana. I think you could change your gear around and level up a bit and your tone might change on a lot of your takes here. I will admit that the soloability is bad, but that in itself is not a bad thing. Again, that encourages group play, which is what MMORPGs are really about.

The Inquisitor is an anti-spellcaster disruption tank. It's entire kit revolves around that, and it performs that function superbly. If we start talking about taking things away from the class, I agree that some things that overlap from the Enchanter could be taken away (buff utility being probably the only thing I would say makes sense here, since crowd control via Mez and Scintillating lines fits into "disruption tank" quite well)... but if we want to talk about overlap being inherently bad, then we need to change literally all classes... and not by a small amount. Every class has overlap - the question is, are changes being made to classes right now because of that overlap (and their potential desire to reduce overlap), or are they attempting to make classes functionally unique (while allowing some overlap)? That's where the distinction comes into play with regards to applying this conversation to the Inquisitor, and is exactly why they really don't need to change the Inquisitor very much, if at all - the class is already the most unique class in the game, and it performs it's intended function extremely well with the kit it currently has.

Zaroua

Inquisitors do need some changes. Mana costs of spells scales too quickly in comparison to their mana pool and mana recovery. Lack of any kind of DPS/sustainability for soloing. Insufficient mana burn/purge potential. The most important reason why they need changes though is this: they no longer are the unique anti-caster class of MnM. Rogues now get a spell casting slow poison on top of all their interrupts, and Wizards now also get a spell casting slow AND a spammable mini-stun on top it.

But they don't need a class overhaul. Despite all the above, they still feel amazing to play in groups, and they're incredibly powerful on top it.

NotFlourishing

Denerik Sure, there's a lot they could change about the Inquisitor (and even more-so for the other classes), but is it really necessary in order for the class to function how it is intended to function and is described to function?

Mana Drain has a cooldown timer - it is not redundant to have/actively used these two spell lines at all. You can cast a Mana Burn, then a Mana Drain, then another Mana Burn if you are intentionally trying to OOM a mob, sustaining some of your Mana in the process... otherwise, you couldn't just spam Mana Drain back to back (due to the cooldown timer).

The Enchanter buffs are probably the only thing I would agree that are not a necessity to the class as it stands currently. Haste is great for the class, because it adds some much-wanted dps... but it is not the end of the world to not have it.

I would not be happy to see the masses get their wishes with regards to the class. The design flaw of the game currently is that the game does not actually require you to group. There's almost no reason to up until endgame dungeons, and even then some classes can literally solo them at the moment (looking at you, DRU and BST...). Not every class, in fact very few classes, should be able to solo well (with concepts of sustain tanking being unique to SK, accompanied by dps, or Paladin where it is a pseudo-main function).

NotFlourishing

Zaroua But they don't need a class overhaul. Despite all the above, they still feel amazing to play in groups, and they're incredibly powerful on top it.

This is where I am at with the class. It functions exactly as it was intended to function, is the best tank for groups, and is incredibly powerful in that environment, but is not so overpowered that it can do everything by itself. It lacks dps and soloability for a reason, and I genuinely think it should stay that way. I hope people complaining about the class lacking sustainability or soloability don't end up pushing the devs to somehow ruin this class.

Fidric

Not yet mentioned, but presumably an important element of their population values is being limited to human so far, without infravision.

Dispel magic access is great. (But past a certain point, Dispel Stones are easy to hoard and are kind of broken)

Hard to judge & compare any of the three caster tanks as they currently stand prior to their de hybridization.

Also as has come up, it is hard to compare a more organic ungeared pick up group leveling experience to more geared/twinked co ordinated static levelled result.

NotFlourishing

Fidric Deep Elf releasing might change that, but it also might not be as effective as you'd think since population in general is dwindling with class changes and EA coming around the corner (progress made right now is moot due to wipe incoming, so less players are inclined to play/commit).

OMeffigy

NotFlourishing Human is the reason im not playing my Inq... GiB Deep Elfs

Sariod

I would contend that Inquisitor has desperate need of changes, having taken mine to 35 and put the class on the shelf until the rework. I will explain it like this, everything this class does leads to it's unique problem. It has an inverted fun curve, the bigger and more organized your groups become(or even if you just play with really good players) the directly less fun this class becomes. Your Mez matters very little, mana burn/drain matters less because Kick/Silence are sufficient because the group kills things in a reasonable amount of time. Purging debuffs even with our two purges isn't random it just works it's way back up the list of buffs the target has on them.
The most powerful thing Inquisitor does regardless of group is AoE stun every 10 seconds and if truly focused on it can prevent non-named individual casters from ever casting, which is just too rare.
I am personally going to skip over soloability because I don't care we can't solo, I like being a group tank only.
Personal DPS is another thing entirely, after 30+ and your damage dealers are like sitting up in their chairs and playing their classes our ability to tank outside of casters where we can use Mana Burn it really does become difficult unless you enjoy waiting on taunt cool downs.

NotFlourishing

Sariod I would argue the opposite. The more competent your group is, the more fun you can make the game artificially by intentionally over-pulling. In the mid-40s, my groups would be intentionally pulling something like 10 mobs at a time in Grimtide Sanctum because that was how we would actually give ourselves a challenge and make the game more interesting.

With pulling more mobs, things like your Mana Drains, Mezzes, and PBAoE Stuns being used often and at the right times becomes more crucial and the experience as a whole more exhilarating, which is in turn more fun (at least for us). Single pulling mobs is not fun to me (or anyone else in my group), so the first 80% of the leveling process of the game has been quite boring to us... now that we have some better gear and our classes are fully online, we are able to do some ridiculous things, and make the game artificially more challenging and therefore more fun for ourselves.

That stems from a design flaw in the game that I have mentioned already 2 or 3 times above that seems to be in the process of being worked on, but is really where they could grab the attention of a lot of players (and make their game into an actual MMORPG rather than what it is now - a single player game with the option to group).

Des

NotFlourishing I love the attention to detail here, thanks for your awesome reply. I can literally feel your passion for this class and that alone make me happy.

1) Purifying Blow ~ Agreed, sometimes you really want stuff purged but cant get to it because its like 3-4 buffs deep, like a DS. Though lets face it, no one cares about any other buffs to dispel. Enlighten me if you truly think this is an issue at any level other than the 50+ bracket.

2) I don't think I said much about wanting them to be more DPS, but that certainly helps threat and would be a very welcome addition to their kit, with INQ being the more aggressive tank, with Fighter moving more defensive.

3) 100% doesnt need to solo through the entire game and on the contrary, most classes cant solo effectively in the higher brackets -especially the hybrids- where even killing greens is a chore. Let us be able to make progress and not hop on an alt if nothing is going on. You telling me its fine to suffer for no reason doesnt fly, Its 2026. The devs agree with me on this one, so its moot anyhow.

4) Manaburn/Drain ~ I will stand by them being useless. You have no liberty to sit and the INQ kit costs too much. Lower the cost for INQ-specific spells and you have my vote. Right now drain doesnt do enough and burn is useless.

5) Mez isnt bad, I didnt say that. I said root is just as good. Do you normally pull full groups of caster mobs? Normally you mez melee and attack casters first. I will completely concede that yeah, in situations where you have multi-caster pulls, mezzing is best. Right now root is the poor mans CC and even Paladins get it.

The rest of this doesnt need a reply, as you are very clearly cemented in your own opinion, and as such its unlikely we will convince you either way! This is fine with me, and i love your passion for the class and that you've enjoyed it this much.

All I would add is just be kind in your replies. You were overly rude in your post and you dont need that to get your point across. Its best to come in here with an open mind, as plenty of people have different and sorted experiences and peoples opinions here are certainly valid in reference to those shared experiences.

REHOK

Inquisitor already has one of the coolest identities in the game, so I really don’t want to see it turned into a generic tank or some solo DPS hybrid.

The anti-magic plate tank thing is the whole appeal: silence, purge, mez, AoE stun, mana pressure, shutting casters down. That should stay.

I do think some parts can be cleaned up though, especially mana costs, overlap with Enchanter, and abilities that feel too niche. The rework notes sound like the right direction to me: keep the weird anti-caster tank identity, just make it smoother and more useful in normal groups.

NotFlourishing

Des 1) Purging any of the Druid "-skin" line, Regen line, and the Cleric's "Holy X" line will save you TONS of time over the course of each kill collectively. Reducing mob EHP pools by roughly 20% the entire leveling process is no joke (in addition to the thorns as you mentioned). While yes, they make more of a difference in the higher levels, you also will spend much more time in the higher levels... although that doesn't also mean that the lower levels/tiers are not going to end up saving you time, especially over the course of entire play sessions or days going on into weeks worth of playing. Considering you reduce EHP pools on 50+ mobs by upwards of 800 points when you fully debuff them (AC, raw HP from buffs, Regen amounts over the course of the whole TTK per mob) and those same mobs only have total health pools of about 4000, you are looking at a reduction of roughly 20%. Now think about how long leveling from 51 to 60 took, and imagine if you could cut that down by 20%, or even 15%, just by slotting in an Inquisitor as your tank. Then, even further, imagine that applying to the entire leveling process, and you will never want to use any other tank in the game, ever again. Any serious group wanting to level fast should take an Inquisitor just for this, assuming it does not change.

2 and 3) You did not, but practically everyone else does. That is a problem, in my books. Not having high dps or sustainability is a good thing because it encourages grouping, which seems like a lost art for MMORPGs in this day and age. Just because it is 2026 doesn't mean the game should become a -lite version or a mobile version of the genre where the game plays itself or has no modicum of challenge at all to it. It is not challenge or "suffering" for no reason - it is there because that is what defines the genre. These types of game are literally built around grouping, being social, and coming together to overcome the odds. You are not supposed to be able to solo well in MMORPGs. The reason you may be having a hard time finding groups right now may not be present when the game isn't actively losing population due to the current state of the game (being in closed beta with changes happening to classes and an upcoming wipe on the horizon all compounding to deter people from playing).

4) Obviously can't change your mind here, but I encourage you to go to a place like Grimtide Sanctum and keep them on your bar, actively using Mana Drain when you can. I promise you won't go OOM anywhere near as often as you usually do.

5) Yeah, so the group of players that I run with are constantly pushing the game/ourselves to limit test. I am practically always pulling no less than 4 mobs at a time, and yes usually there are no less than 2 casters out of that bunch now that devs are making the game have a bit more variety of mob classes and now fairly "intelligent" mobs. There are not many places we venture to that provide inherent challenge so we effectively make our own, and that's just the way we like these games to be. We are always killing red con mobs as a group, assuming they exist.

Mesh

Sariod

Agree.

The direction of the rework sounds great to me.

Not just disrupting enemy casters but enabling casters in your group gives Inquisitor a nice niche even when they're not main tanking.

Though the fact that Inquisitors use mana still seems weird to me. An "Anti-Magic Tyrant" that uses magic seems contradictory. Feels like an energy or rage system would be more fitting.

Zee

I just want to chime in and say that I agree with most of the things NotFlourishing has said in this thread, please listen to him devs. I really don't understand where Des is coming from, it feels like they play a different game than I do. shrug

In general I hope we keep the anti-magic tank theme and that we specifically keep PBAE Stun, spell interrupts, single target Mez spells, and ways to empty mana bars. I have a blast with the class, I can't kill anything alone, but the Inq is very fun in groups.

I feel like I can fit into almost any group compositions by doing some combination of tanking, pulling and CC. For example when there is another tank in the group, I'll cover pulls and CC. I keep at least 2 mobs in the camp at all times. The mob being killed, and then 1 more mez'd next to the tank so there is no downtime between mobs. It's non-stop action of pulling and timing re-mez's, mixed in with periodic bursts of cough DPS and shutting down NPC casters.

NotFlourishing

Zee I appreciate that, thank you.

I might not have actual dev experience, but I have more (tens of thousands of) hours played than I care to admit over the last 30+ years of gaming, and while most other people play games, too, I don't think most play them with the same convictions I do, nor have they been primarily testing (rather they just play the game as a form of casual entertainment) or limit testing.

When it comes to making MMORPGs, it seems like the way has been lost over the past two decades. The MMO (or the social/community) aspect of the game is gone. Everyone wants to be able to solo, or box, or AFK in groups and let the game play itself out. While yes, some games can operate that way and be successful while filling that niche for a small portion of the playerbase, the key takeaway from discussions like this concerning class design and relative strength (as in soloability and having sustain or dps on tanks) is that in order for the game to feel like an MMORPG, you have to actually enforce grouping before you reach the last 10 or so levels of the game... otherwise you are creating a glorified lobby for people to sit in while waiting for raid spawn timers (which is probably why they just added games to NH - they know this is their trajectory and want that to be the case).

If that's their goal, there's not much we can do. They'll do it despite what we say... which leads the game to being exactly what WoW currently is (a glorified lobby for raid instances once you reach endgame), except for the major difference in that here you will either be in the Guild that controls those raid spawn timers or key drop spawns, or you aren't... which is inherently more toxic than just instancing the content. And if you only actually do MMORPG things at the endgame, when you tout that your game's focus is on the journey through the leveling process... I can't help but think that someone, somewhere, is being contradictory (knowingly or otherwise).

The Inquisitor is currently the most actual MMORPG class they have, and I bet they change that as they rework it. There are many other game and class design flaws that push the game to be much less MMORPG and much less about the journey than they seem to want to acknowledge, but if they don't want to be helped, our words cannot help them.

Caffeen

NotFlourishing

One correction. Inquisitors don't have a "drain" mana line, they have a "destroy" mana line.

You don't receive the destroyed mana. Enchanters are the only ones who get the Mana Drain line. (That said, it's still super useful to be able to quickly take a dangerous caster out of the fight.)

I've been quite happy with Inqs kit. Our only real issue is that our biggest strength is also our biggest weakness. Most of our mitigation comes from stuns. Being able to keep a mob stunned 95% of the time for the first 18 seconds of a fight means the fight is close to over by the time I start taking hits.

However, when fighting a named or other unstunnable mob, I now have no mitigation tools, and take full damage the entire fight. This is even worse in raid encounters. It would be very nice to have something in our toolkit to allow us to tank the big bads.

Recnal

Overall INQ is a good class in a good place. All it needs is a lil refinement and a lil more individual identity. Maybe a spell reflect or something along those lines since they are the anti caster. Have it be on par with the new fighter shield block, you only have a 5 sec window to land it, but would make for more engaging gameplay and help their dps out a lil bit.