Maul vs Mangle, not chop

Oofok

Why do i keep seeing people talking about maul vs chop and 1h vs 2h? Mangle is the 2h specific alternative to maul, not chop. Or am i missing something?

Faelin

Chop was intended to be 2h only, the code for 2h only abilities didn't make the patch. Currently you can use all the abilities while dual wielding.

https://monstersandmemories.com/class-beastmaster-deep-dive

Oofok

now that they have done the update and made it 2h only i sort of feel like it's pretty much forced use of 2h. before there were the 2 skills 1 for dw and 1 for 2h, but you could still use what i think seems very obviously to be the most powerful skill, chop, with either or and therefore they were somewhat equivalent. now it seems completely lopsided towards 2h. i haven't tested much of anything since the changes but on paper it seems that way, i wonder if its somehow still balanced between the two. if it's not it seems like a reduction in options and not something i'm a huge fan of. guess i'm in the market for a whalebone spear to replace my stirring stick and savage club, i feel like i have time for naps between swings of my tree feller.

Vyanie

I really don't like the feeling of being forced into 2H to use non trash skills, the DW skills are absolute garbage. Instead of making 2h better to close the gap they are trying to gut DW and force 2h for decent skills. I dont know of many BST that like 2H, it doesnt feel like it should be a bst focus. Their are already a lot of other classes that do 2h better, let us keep DW. In middle of testing it, the crits from chop are a massive threat generation for pet, depending on the level thats between 2 - 10 attacks that the pet auto crits and now that is being taken away. Maul by comparison is absolute trash, -5% enemy phys damage for 5 seconds. The damage is lower as chop gets % and fixed damage + 5 seconds of pet crit, maul is.... garbage.

Xyshina

Hopefully they check the data the next couple weeks and see no beast is using maul.

Also, thematically, using dual weild feels good as beast, it feels like a wild savage. Let us lean into it if we want without feeling gimped.

Faelin

Maul hits like a wet noodle because auto attacks while dual wielding do more damage than 2h when using the same quality of weapons. If they make Maul hit hard, dual wield will pass 2h Chop damage, so they gave it a defensive effect instead. Maul might scale better as you get better weapons due to the crit effect on Chop not scaling since pets don't scale. If they make Maul hit hard, they'd either have to nerf dual wield auto attack somehow, like making offhand weaker or miss more, or make Chop even stronger to maintain the 2h bias. Rogue, Bard, Ranger, Spellblade are probably all best dual wielding. Archer mostly uses whatever for stat sticks. That leaves Beastmaster, SK, and Fighter to be the 2h dominant classes. Inquisitor and Paladin are going to do less damage than Fighter and SK and won't be 2h powerhouses. It's also a first pass, I'd expect more changes and polish throughout EA once all the class reworks are done. The way 2h and dw scale could change, Maul and Chop could change, but I would still expect 2h to come out on top in the end based on their deep dive description.

Vyanie

The defense effect is negligible at best, 5% of physical damage, thats 5 damage per 100 hp, This isnt even enough to be a single hit over a full fight. It is not only the damage the hit themselves do but the effect. 100% crit for 5 seconds for pet is massive. The other problem is this now makes BST the only DPS class that cant utilize its skills without doing a weapon swap. The only other classes that do this are the tanks for shield bash skills. Locking skills behind 2h and DW is a bad decision with horrible effect. This needs to be changed back as you now force the player to pay to get a skill they will more than likely never use. If you are saying they need to give bad skills to DW because 2h sucks then that is not the answer, fix 2h

thedrizzle

Vyanie Beast is suppose to be a 2h dps class with options to DW? This was explained in the deep dive and class rework. DW was never suppose to work with Chop it just did because they had not coded weapon specific CAs yet. Fighters new skills are similar and can only be used with 1 weapon type.

Its good the DW is not always the best answer, maul likely needs adjustments to be better but this was their plan

Faelin

I view dual wield on BST as a convenient option while leveling since you might come across two great 1h weapons before you can get your hands on a good 2h. Dual wield is probably better low levels anyway since pets don't get dual wield and double attack until later so the crit from Chop isn't as effective. In a group setting the TTK a mob with a BST using 2h vs dual wield won't be noticeable, only min/max type people will care and this type of game will likely never be tuned to min/max WoW world first mythic raid bosses. All that said, I agree Maul feels super weak to push, but I think enough people have submitted feedback and data that devs are aware, they definitely aren't done developing Beastmaster yet, but the class is strong and functional at the moment so we'll just have to be patient.

Vyanie

Multiple separate issues here. The first being that DW is just being thrown under the bus for 2H. As from what I have seen during the posts and in game the vast majority of people see BST as a DW character and forcing the 2H play style feels very bad. Second, people will gravitate towards what is best so it is not only the min/max crowd. The fact that there is only a single DW ability vs 2 that are 2h only, and the DW one isn't just sub par, its trash. Both of the 2H ones are useful, Chop being a very nice damage by itself, then 5 full seconds of your pet having 100% crit chance. Mangle is amazing for any type of mob that can heal, or any group aggro with a healing mob present, and still does great damage. Maul just basically prevents a single hit of physical damage once every 3 or 4 mobs, and that's if you can keep it up consistently, while also offering up sub par damage. At no point in the deep dive does it state that BST are supposed to be a 2H class, or that they are supposed to favor 2h. Right now, it is in not only my but a lot of peoples opinion being changed into another generic 2h that doesn't fit how people view someone who is supposed to be more savage and fighting alongside their companions.

Faelin

Vyanie At no point in the deep dive does it state that BST are supposed to be a 2H class, or that they are supposed to favor 2h.

Think I've seen another dev or two mention BST 2h dominant class as well.

Vyanie

Faelin That proves my point that it says its been replaced with new attacks, yes some favor 2 handed but there should be a solid option for DW.... there is not. It never says that they are trying to change the class into 2H.

thedrizzle

Vyanie The discord has multiple post from Xilith saying Bst will be the primary 2h DPS class in the game for now (besides archer) for players looking for that barbarian archetype. I agree Maul needs some buffs > should hit a bit harder + dmg reduction should last ₁₂-16 seconds so it has strong up time so its always viable or change it to be a more dmg focused skill (since we have howl already)

However, many people wanted bst as a 2h dps class and I think people just got so used to always DWing cause its honestly massively better at most gear tiers that they forgot the plan was always to have Chop/Mangle be 2H only. I think feedback on ways to make Maul better are great > but many of us wanted Bst to be a 2H specialist which it actually is now

Ocellus

Faelin you're my hero.

Ocellus

One of the issues I've seen with dual wield versus 2H is that you often get some sweet stat buffs by using DW since you gain stats from both weapons. For example (and admittedly not the best example, but I think shows my point), my sturdy battle axe is a nice 2H weapon, giving me str, sta, and Hp. However, if I DW with carrion caller and penitent gavel I gain 10 wis, bumping my mana pool (extra heals overall) and bumping the value of my heals up by around 6-7 points per tick.

One could argue that the chop/mangle abilities (and extra STR from axe) will drop the mob faster thus lowering the need for a bump to mana and heals due to lower TTK, but that's a matter of the luck of the damage numbers, which don't always max out. Plus the NPC doing parry, dodge, or your swing just flat missing can increase TTK as well.

I'm not complaining, I don't care enough about archetypes and which method is more "in tune" with my impression of a made up mythical game cartoon, but it is another reason some folks might be a bit bummed that maul appears, at least upon initial testing, to be weaker than it should. Feeling "forced" to be a 2H weapon user seems overwrought to me. It's not like they took DW away. Who cares if you do a little less damage? Use the weapons you want, play the game the way you want, and offer data driven, thoughtful feedback.

Happy hunting all! Warm days and pleasant nights!

Stone_Achromous

Solution seems pretty straight forward?

Remove dual wield.
Make all 3 attacks have distinct damage profiles. Examples: Maul hits twice? Mangle applies a bleed?
Make the attacks have effects that can be frequently utilized. Give us a reason to pick between the 3.

We are half way there.

Vyanie

Stone_Achromous How about just change everything to DW, makes more sense than trying to make BST a bad barbarian?

The wanting to force people into 2h is bad, they need to either open all skills up to both or give them non trash dw skills.

Stone_Achromous

They have a vision for the class and are building towards that. Maybe you should be more receptive to changes and help them improve the class in the direction they want to go, instead of being shackled to your own opinion of how the class should be.

I haven't seen any constructive criticism from you yet... Just criticism.

How should they improve it now that you know that it is a 2H focused class?

Ulf

I think 2hander is very strong especially early game. Obviously use the best weapon/dps for your level. If you have good stats or procs on a 1hander its worth stacking dex. Otherwise I feel like high strength with a 2hander is the way to go.

Vyanie

Stone_Achromous The criticism is well deserved, i wrote up what they could change in another post but ill put some key points here as well just for DW. Since they want to give 2H pet autocrit for 5 sec then give DW +20% pet damage for 8-10 seconds (this would still be less damage than autocrit) and a second one that lets the pet take less damage for a specific amount of time (not some trash 5% but something meaningful like 15 - 20 %) for like 5-10 seconds or something or give its hits a much higher threat for a small amount of time, maybe an attack that lets either pet or you apply a debuff that entire team hits for more damage. This is but a very few options. Notice i didnt take anything away from 2h? The criticism is there because the change was done very ham fisted and it is extremely obvious someone wants it to be a bad barbarian with a pet. If they do well I say so just like i said i love the pivot away from a trash shaman, but equally when they do stuff like this i call them out. I am not a fragile tactful person, I am very blunt and honest.