Fighter Deep Dive Discussion!

aerah

Arkamedeez Is the monk experiencing any issues with its stances? Out of curiosity?

Arkamedeez

aerah Is the monk experiencing any issues with its stances? Out of curiosity?

Actually there might be. The stances are supposed to increase Block/Dodge or Offense by 5 but there is no visual of that happening on the skills tab.

rebelz

Cross Cut being on the same cooldown as Rend is also a problem. Rend does more damage, and more threat. I can't think of any reason to ever put it on that bar unless its on its own timer.

Xyshina

rebelz it’s meant for when you are not tanking so you don’t pull threat

Znack

"defense" (-40%dmg 30sec) and merciless assault on the other hand not sharing a cooldown makes fantasy wise no sense to me

the fighter uses a big core defensive ability to reduce damage, and is able to go all out into a berserk mode - at the same moment

it would feel much better to me to put those big cooldowns on the same cd and shift some power elsewhere, maybe be more lenient with other cooldown sharing abilites etc

edit:
Defense - Spell description: Take up a defensive posture, reducing melee damage dealt to you by 40% for 30 seconds.
Merciless Assault - Spell description: Unleash a merciless assault, increasing your Physical Damage dealt by (...)

Xilith

aerah I can pretty regularly reproduce by zoning and watching my combat log. When I zone, upon entering the new zone, my combat log states "You relax your stance." When this happens, my stance bar still shows me in my stance, and my buff bar still shows my stance as applied, but I do not generate Vengeance. When I cycle stances, Vengeance will start to generate.

This is the sort of insight that usually helps nail something subtle like this down. Thanks a bunch!

Xilith

Znack

They probably should be, thanks for pointing it out.

rebelz

Is there a lot more coming and rework for fighter? Looking at Inquisitor's toolkit after the rework today and what fighter got it feels like we were gutted. I'm not really sure what the compelling factor of having a FTR in your group over one of the other 3 tanks is right now.

Emesis

Is there any room / space for FTR to provide opportunity / boost to other party members to utilize as a means of not just making us reactive/retaliatory but also in boosting our teamwork with other classes. This might go a long way in terms of helping mitigate the concern of "What do we do with a second FTR? I can't use my kit if I'm not main tanking"

Perhaps something along the lines of building off of stun / armor break creating "Opportunity" which is a debuff that can add extra damage to attacks / spells hitting the target. This can only be generated while in Offensive Stance.

Change it so our abilities like Defensive/Shield Slam/Shield Block/Frenzy/Second Wind can only be used in Defensive Stance and build off Vengeance which is only gained while in Defensive / retaliatory focused gen.

Make Merciless Assault usable in Offensive Stance rather than Defensive to avoid the overlap in CDs. Grant a GCD when swapping so while we can stance dance, it prevents just bouncing hit x skills, swap back as easily. (if that's a concern / something you want to avoid)

This would also potentially allow an off-tank FTR to boost their DPS potential, while also providing a tangible benefit to the rest of the group as well. So for instance, say once a target has reached 3 stacks of Armor Break, the fighter's attacks now begin to generate "Opportunity". When a FTR has used Cross-Cut or Cleave the target receives 1 stack of Opportunity. Make it overall last 20 seconds like Vengeance but be refreshed upon using the attacks/etc.

Opportunity stacks to 3, and grants a scaling bonus to overall damage from x% (L1) to x% (L60). I dunno, spitballing here. The overall writeup said we would retain "competitive dps" -- if this is out of line with that, that's fine, I just know it's a point of contention for a lot of players so offering food for thought.

Maybe give Offensive Frenzy as well, but it only goes off 3 stacks of Opportunity and is usable in Offensive stance only.

Also would allow us to provide some more to the overall party as well. But if we minimize stance dancing it still firmly separates the arms of the class overall.

Queesha

Is there any indication if chance to gain a vengeance stack is a flat rate or if it is affected by things like enemy attack speed and time since last stack? If its flat, Shaman ends up having anti synergy with the Fighter thanks to slows. Just feels weird for their core mitigation ability to butt heads so much with our resource gain ability. The melee buffs and regen from Sham made them such a perfect pairing, but now I feel like I will need to ask them to not slow mobs which is interesting.

Xyshina

doesn't feel like flat rate at all. It's still really slow, and slower when the enemy is debuffed.

Fernia

After Adjustments

Second Wind - Feels much better, it's not a lot of healing but it is something and its useful in topping off after a fight.
Rend - seems to be resetting skills as it should be now
Vengeance - RNG generation to fuel skills does not feel like retaliatory gameplay. Even with extending the duration to 20sec on the buff. I still am unable to generate enough to activate Frenzy to its full effects 4 outta 5 times I use the skill. If anything, Vengeance would be better off just being a mild buff that increases our dmg or mitigation or anything really other than using it to fuel 2 abilities. And the problem still remains that Rend/Frenzy synergy is completely out the window now, so we are missing yet another mechanic at the cost of this gimmick. Maybe roll Juggernauts Threat generation mechanic into Vengeance, that would make Vengeance feel great, like 2% per stack more threat generated.
Defense Stance - Adding threat generation to this stance is a step in the right direction, but might still need a small boost, maybe 15%.
Shield Block - If it is to stay coupled to Shield Bash, increase the potency. I have kept it on my bar while in Fallen Watch and I still only have used it a handful of times. It really isn't that useful in its current form.
Challenging Arrow - I still don't understand why it has a cast time at all, when shoot does not, but it's better than 3secs. Still not sure if it earns a spot on the bar though.
Would like better ways to hold aggro. I can use Shield Bash, Rend, Autoattack and a pet can taunt and rip aggro off me like it is nothing. I understand this is how taunt inherently works, but it's frustrating that when I burn all my threat generating abilities an autoattacking skeleton can taunt and pull mobs off me immediately.

-Juggernaut - great ability, I love the rider effect of threat generation buff.

-Vanguard - Is still in theory a great skill but lacks due to implementation of a 5min duration. Make it 1hr duration, it can only be on one target. This could be an iconic mechanic of a Fighter.

Waffle_Goblin

Fernia - Being fair, no pet should have taunt on when in a group that has a tank present. That is a failure on the part of the pet owner.

Emesis

Thoughts on Riposte being an anticipatory skill rather than retaliatory - I.e., FTR hits Riposte and it block the next attack preventing damage and deals ratio weapon damage plus x (L1) to y (L60) to the target

Just spitballing since I know it has come up. Could deal more damage based on Vengeance stacks or whatever have you if you want to build it in.

Emesis

I agree with comments from Fernia that honestly Vengeance is nice, but it would be so much nicer if it just made us feel better / perform better as the fight went on versus being a RNG dependent spender. Shield Block needs to be separate in my opinion, too. It just adds flavor to the shield style offset by not having a 2H or two weapons. Let us do a minimum amount of extra damage but increase threat gen / disrupt casting.

Good thoughts here in a lot of comments.

Aisthetikos

Wall Xilith

I didn't see a note here or in the current patch addressing the issue of lower level mobs not generating vengeance stacks.

Is this currently being evaluated as a bug? With level 12 and below mobs not generating vengeance stacks for a level 13 fighter that just unlocked a spender, it essentially nerfs/punishes the level 13 fighter, locking out their ability to use the spender.

Given the changes to cleric and now paladin to get Fervor stacks and damage proc at level one, it would make sense to give fighter a spender at level 1.

In my testing of classes (I know balancing is still in order), I went to fight warf rats (yellow to a level 1) with various characters. Cleric was able to self sustain and kill them will little issue, damage procs and healing. Paladin fared ok, and will likely perform much better after the deep dive. The fighter couldn't take on one rat, and barely even moved its health bar, and died rather quickly. I will be running this test again with Paladin, and am curious how the recent changes impacts their damage and survival.

If the current cleric and paladin efficiency is intended, fighter would need either access to vengeance stacks and frenzy or second wind, or perhaps both, at level 1 to feel similarly paced imo.

Jeembo

Aisthetikos I'm pretty sure mobs need to be at least level 13 for you to generate Vengeance. The spiders in BTB I believe are level 12 assuming this page is correct: https://monstersandmemories.miraheze.org/wiki/A_net_weaver

I was able to generate Vengeance as a level 30 on some of the crocodiles in Shaded Dunes. Not all of them, however, I assume some are 13 and some are 12 or lower. They all are light green to me.

Aisthetikos

Jeembo thanks for the clarification. What I'm hearing is that vengeance was gated by mob level and not character level? My understanding was the delay in vengeance generation was to avoid the stacks without a spender.

While this approach "works," this essentially nerfs the fighter at 13 to blue and below mobs, as well as anyone wanting to back farm mobs for name camps, and will end up being a bad experience having the spender and not being able to use it.

Edit: Any lvl 13 fighters out there able to test this, and/or report if unable to frenzy on lvl 12 mobs?

Xyshina

Emesis
Exactly this. We need some bigger adjustments. The current system doesn’t add any fun, it just locks us out of a couple mechanics for the sake of having a new resource. The intended design just didn’t quite hit the mark.

Arkanol

As xilith asked me to do posting my idea here for later reference
Vengeance should ramp up the longer we are fighting an enemy rather then it being generated by rng upon being hit
gaining a stack every 10 seconds if we are attacking or being hit up to 5 stacks. stacks are not spent instead they stay and increase the strength of are kit meaning quick fights we are at are weakest longer fights we become power houses this solves the offtank/damage problem were currently facing while keeping to the theme of retaliation based gameplay and learning to fight are opponents more efficiently as we start to notice weak points in there defenses.

any feedback on how to clean this system up to prevent abuses or ideas for how abilities will scale is welcome

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