Pet classes replacing Tank classes

Kirrund

Viyro I didn't play FNF. I got into alpha late. I did a lot of pet testing in closed beta comparing pets to other pets and getting some numbers on that stuff. I disagree with you that pets shouldn't be able to tank well, and in some cases "the tanking pet" should be able to tank as well as a player in exchange for giving up significant damage or some other resource. But ultimately I would prefer them to be able to scale, where you can gear them as well, at least to some degree. Not only does it provide a gameplay mechanic (it doesn't need to be super item heavy either) but it does also remove things from the economy, at least the way I would do it.

Another problem is that there isn't really any significant difference in any of the pet types. The earth pet has more hps, and just a little bit more AC. The new necro pact adds a significant amount of AC (for a mob type) so that contributes greatly. But if these classes had a dedicated tanking pet in trade off for some damage output on the pet, that would probably help with how tanks feel about things. But also, tanks have cooldowns and abilities to use, so maybe that's something that needs to be looked at. Maybe it just doesn't feel good from a player perspective to auto attack the mob and have a few mitigation abilities you cycle through.

But I'm also not a fan of this nerfing arms race. The player base jumps on the next thing, and then the next thing, and the next, and where does it stop? It's just one nerf after another until everyone gets one, and that's a poor way to design a game. It's certainly not fun. We should pushing to shore up missing things for classes that have holes, and pushing to bring other classes up to how complete feeling druids, necros, and rangers are. Classes need to feel fully realized and a lot of them just don't right now.

As for your assumed authority comment, I agree with you. My apologies for being hasty. It's more difficult on the forums, especially with certain people who never bring anything substantial and just muck everything up - it gets super tiring. I've always been someone who loves to help and doing my best to offer patience and time, going out of my way to see others succeed or provide them with knowledge I've gained. I don't like hiding stuff or keeping it to myself. It's not like I know everything either, but I do what I can to the best of my ability with the tools I have available. So, sorry for that. You are right.

Fidric

if a ranger is "tanking", they'll want to be 50% snare Taunt kiting in a melee circle. or the same but Fearing a Beast. which a necro could also just emulate with a higher scaling movement snare & generic fear.

Fell

Kirrund . I disagree with you that pets shouldn't be able to tank well, and in some cases "the tanking pet" should be able to tank as well as a player in exchange for giving up significant damage or some other resource.

So you want to be a high DPS class with good utility and who can gate -- but convert yourself into a tank by swapping pets or casting a spell? You see no problem with that?

I assume you're an elementalist or necro, but the point remains regardless.

Kirrund

Fell Nope, I don't see a problem with that. It's okay for players to be able to do powerful things. Just like it would be okay for a fighter to swap up their bar and change up their gear to fill a role nearly as good as someone dedicated to dps. No difference. You'd still want a full on tank, but a pet would be almost as good. And it can even be done in creative ways.

Viyro

Kirrund

I understand, I am definitely much more on the side of removing homogenization so it requires group mates to play the videogame at a certain pace. This also allows those said people to actually feel special with their "fun buttons". What I would consider a fun button is Clerics 5 minute group heal cd, SK's aoe cc 10 minute cd, or their Sacrifice Minion. For example in this case, I am ok with a pet being an "off tank" or someone that can fill in to a point while your group waits for an actual tank to keep exp etc flowing. Say at 60% of the value of a real tank. This leaves a 40% gap for the rest of your kit etc to shine enough to match said tank, while also maintaining class identity for the real tank. It is likely this is exacerbated by multiple variables, TTK is extremely low (I know people don't like that conversation, again many variables like team comp, soloing viability etc).

Also completely fine with certain classes having the ability to solo at a some-what ok pace. Not ok with classes soloing faster than entire groups however.

If this make believe number is higher, you start getting in to the "Why am I bringing a tank?" situation when the overall kit of the pet class is significantly better.

I do not think a pet class should be a permanent substitute for a Tank. I do not think a Fighter should substitute as a permanent DPS. We have other games in different styles that supply that type of gameplay.

Reality is everyone has a different definition of what is "correct". For this style of game I want each and every player to feel special at the thing they do. Think Paladin with LOH / DS removal / Group healing. Cleric with HP Buffs / Pure healing potential and Rezes. Ranger for their group buffs / recouperate (bit nerfed not as useful). Hopefully special campfire buffs eventually etc. Bard with Overhaste / Highest Mana Regen / Highest Movement Speed. I don't think Tanks being trampled on for what they provide is a good thing. Maybe people think said tanks should be given more utility so they can shine in other ways.

Give me a reason to bring every class, make them special in their own way. I think we are relatively speaking going in that direction, they just need more time, and certain things need tweaking. I definitely think everyone here overblows the issues with the game, including myself sometimes. Most of my current issues are bug / lag related and once those are fixed I can imagine we will see balance changes over time. We have a long way to 1.0.

Velthorian

Ajjantis hehe, long been on ignore filter for me... if you want to take away my Earth pet, how do you propose to compensate me? I already am defenseless against even light greens while petless, i can't root, i can't fd, i can't snare, i can't channel, i can't AOE, and i can't COTH. Im willing to give up my earth pet.. at a cost. Frankly, i never use the fucking thing anyways, it has soo much HP that it's a chore to heal, like half the goddamn mana bar to heal it, and it does shit damage so it's incredibly inefficient to use for anything other then absorbing hits.. such a niche pet to begin with. Who makes the choice to giver up Air rush, a massive DPS boon to the entire group, to "sorta tank" with a pet? I nuke like a level 16 wizard when im petless at lvl 60. 250 damage on mobs with 20k hp. My burst ability has been completely anhilated. I don't have even the most basic AOE. I have a single defense ability, on a 30 minute cool down, that I use once or twice a week, that always consumes at minimum 2 spell slots. Give me a fucking break with your Fighter tears.

Velthorian

SilverSkyway or.. if there is a legitimate problem instead of nerfing something that is barely adequate to get the job done, improve the other thing.

Zaroua

Mesh Why is this an issue?

Because pets take less damage and have more HP than tanks do. Because pets are disposable. Because the pet's master can heal it. Because it generates enough threat to hold aggro.

Fell

Velthorian ... if you want to take away my Earth pet, how do you propose to compensate me?

Where is this drama queen histrionics coming from? No one's talking about removing your earth pet. We're talking about not allowing you and your pet to fill two roles at once - a DPS and a tank class.

Velthorian Frankly, i never use the fucking thing anyways, it has soo much HP that it's a chore to heal,

You're not framing a consistent argument - you never use the pet, but it would be a disaster to nerf it? And you're literally complaining your pet has too many HP? That's got to be a joke.

Velthorian

Fell You must be replying to me, for others benefit, because i can't see a goddamn thing your posting ;p good day sir.

Kirrund

Viyro So you say 60%, I say more like 80%. Homegenization is when every body does the same thing with skills that are copies but just renamed something else. But what I'm talking about is classes being able to fulfill similar roles in different ways. You brought up a good example yourself.

Bard mana and hp regen song, enchanter clarity, ranger recuperate. These are all sustain and recovery role abilities and they do the same thing in different ways - enchanter and bard have ongoing sustain and recovery, while ranger opts more towards eventually needing to take an accelerated break that recovers the group to full strength so they can continue again.

I think it's important to think outside the box and look at ways classes can fill similar roles by still keeping their 'fun buttons' as you described it, and still having uniqueness. It doesn't have to be so cut and dry, and a lot of people tunnel vision on this, usually because they haven't had a breadth of experience of games to pull ideas from, so they can't even conceptualize what this would look like. (Not you specifically). The advantages of this create more unique group comps and allow people to swap things up and makes for an overall more fun experience. Dark Age of Camelot is an example of a game that really thought outside the box on a lot of classes while still fitting into the premise of classic trinity type gameplay. And DAoC is listed as one of the major influences on this game. Unfortunately I don't see much of it here and I think that works to its detriment.

Fell

Kirrund Homegenization is when every body does the same thing with skills that are copies but just renamed something else. But what I'm talking about is classes being able to fulfill similar roles

Homogenization is when class roles overlap substantially, meaning everyone is mostly good at most things and thus classes don't depend on each other. When you can put together a group that doesn't require a tank or a priest -- just some pet classes and a random dps or two, that's a classic example of homogenization. It destroys class interdependence and the need for group tactics. Tank in the group not doing his job? No problem-- pet will fill in. Priest not healing? No problem ... we'll all pitch in with our heals.

drac0

Pets are way too strong and should be nerfed cough Necros.

However the easy solution to this is to gut the threat a pet can have. It should be able to hold threat for those classes when soloing, but struggle, or just not be able to hold it when in parties, necessitating a proper player tank

Kirrund

Fell Homogenization is when class roles overlap substantially, meaning everyone is mostly good at most things and thus classes don't depend on each other. When you can put together a group that doesn't require a tank or a priest -- just some pet classes and a random dps or two, that's a classic example of homogenization. It destroys class interdependence and the need for group tactics. Tank in the group not doing his job? No problem-- pet will fill in. Priest not healing? No problem ... we'll all pitch in with our heals.

Nah

Viyro

Kirrund

Yes I would consider this a massive problem. Fell kind of hit on the head. When a pet is 80% of a tank (in your words above) and you still have the rest of your kit including being able to significantly heal said pet, you are vastly outclassing a tanks "spot" in a group, that is removing the need for tanks. They turn in to a nice to have so we can be lazy, not a requirement so we can do "hard" content. If you were chain killing a bunch of very undercon mobs with your pet its kinda whatever, that is however not the case.

Not something I would like to see personally, and has been true almost the entire time of this games existence, outside of specific patches. Hard thing to balance. At the end of the day it isn't up to us to decide it, just to give feedback on what is currently happening then hopefully intent is talked about. From the messages I have seen over the years I would not consider this to match intent.

If we use a fake scale of a tank being a 10 and your pet being an 8 in comparison, you are still getting 4 or 5 or more from the rest of your kit (I am purposely underrating the rest of a kit). I don't really see how this makes any kind of sense.

Greywulf

Viyro I am just tired of classes saying other classes need something nerfed. Stay in your lane with your class. By you calling for nerfs to the caster tank pets you are at the same time taking away the ability for them to solo with the tank pet. If it bugs you so much why are you playing with a class in your group that is using a tank pet? Seems to me like you have benefited from said tank pet? People who want an actual tank in their groups will get one. And those who could care less will use what is available. Not sure if you have noticed but it is not like there are a ton of groups all the time that have the luxury of getting exactly what they want for the group makeup. Instead of saying pets need nerfed maybe try tanks need buffed? Whuda thunk it... as for my "aggressive" post? Sorry I must have forgot to put on my kid gloves...

Greywulf

Viyro Your first mistake is agreeing to anything Fell says. Second mistake is you are trying to dictate what others can have in their group makeup by you choosing what can be used. If you and your buddies don't like a tank pet in your group don't use it. How flippen simple is that? As I said before maybe others don't mind it.
This post has gotten way more attention than it deserved.

Viyro

Greywulf

Edit:

Just going to kind of end my side of the conversation with you here. I agree to disagree.

Nideak

Greywulf I don't base my thoughts on what others say. I don't care what Fell says (i disagree with him on most of his posts around), but if pet classes can tank even remotely as good as true tank classes that is horrible game design. I am sorry that some of you are so up in your feels that you cannot understand why a pet dps class replacing a class that can only tank is bad for the game.

This is one of the reasons why the community being in constant contact with the devs and being allowed to speak so loudly is a really bad idea. You guys are not worried about the health of the game or good game design, you think this is a contest where your class needs to win. It's selfish, myopic, and shortsighted, but hey, you get to come off as pompous, so i guess you're happy.

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