Shadowknights are just fine like we are

Splendarella

Shadowknights are a plate wearing tank class. We do not need more damage. With buffs I can solo whites and some yellows in the mid thirties.(still wearing a couple pieces of rusted steel armor from the vendor)

Shadow Strike should be usable with sword and shield, it shouldn't matter what weapon it is so that it doesn't force all shadowknights to be the same.

DPS boost? Damage is fine, I am a tank class not a damage dealer.

Do not remove the pet. The pet cannot off tank or take any damage really but, the pet could be just the small amount of extra damage you are looking for.

Life taps are also working well. Its all in the timing. There has to be a chance for an interrupt, but if you start your cast as soon as you get hit it usually completes before the next incoming round.

Grip of agony is really useless but if it were to be tuned up some, the cooldown would need to be massively increased with it. IN original EQ, for most players "Harm touch" was used as a last resort because it took so long to come back up.

No to teleports. We have feign death for that, it works very well for me also.

Spells and melee abilities should be on the same bar. If you could have them on separate bars it would be like the WoW ui. Being limited to what you can use makes your selections much more meaningful.

so for spells: I do not use any of the deluge line of Damage over time or the Fracture line of debuffs. Not worth the spot on my abilities bar. I do use fear alot. Fear is how to kite monsters with the pet damage. Keep a mob feared and snared and let the pet widdle it down.

I will probably have more thoughts later but as for now that is it. Shadowknights are working very well for me. I love the plate wearing ability to not be dependent on other players.

Splendorella

Jershey

nah i'm looking forward to the new shadowknight

jdbertsch

I have played a SHD in both alpha and beta, and with the new ac changes, the class is solid. That said, some of the spells we have are useless, and are not useful in solo or group settings (Deluge spells). I think the change will not impact our life taps, fear, feign death, and str drains, and i assess it will give us more useful abilities to both tank and do damage. The biggest change will come from our pet loss, which I fully support IF they compensate the dps loss (i.e. add a flat shadow based damage that the SHD can imbue his weapons with). Things like locate corpse, or the DoT spells are just not useful and are never on my bar. Playing all the way to 58, I never used the DoTs due to how high the mana cost is, and they were not impactful to TTK at all.

Essentially you had, slam, shadowstrike, shadow grip, drain strength, life tap, snare, fear, terror in the shadow, fd, and Unholy bulkwork on your ability bar from essentially level 15 on (28 for UB). My only request is that we get something to make up for the significant DPS loss when the pet is taken.

ThePanda

Splendarella - fear and stuff is great on non-named. And you might be right about the mid-30s. In the 50s, I struggle with Light Blue cons, and casting during battle is really rough when mobs all have dual wield, double attack, kick, stun, and charge. You just constantly get interrupted so a cast time decrease would be good.

I agree with your core sentiment though that the class is pretty close and doesnt need a lot of change.

We do NEED the pet for a lot of things. 1) DPS boost 2) brief off-tank 3) Sacrifice Minion (required for hard solos or raid tanking) 4) I also use it for creative pulls.

jdbertsch i’m shocked you guys don’t use the Deluge line. It goes in the 1 flex spot i have on my bar a lot of the time. In small groups (2-4) i use it to boost dps. In solo, it’s the core component to killing a named mob (immune to snare, fear, stuns)

Would i like to be able to solo a green named mob in less than 7 minutes - yes. But are we a DPS class - no. So generally, SK feels very close. I hope the update is only minor tweaks - BUT if they remove the pet, larger changes to other things will be required to recover that utility.

jdbertsch

ThePanda good points - I do use DoTs when it’s a named, pending on mana regen. That said, it’s hard to use that mana for a dot solo when a lifetap heals, does about the same amount of full damage, and is instant. They cost the same amount of mana - so again, depends on the situation and mana regen. If I’m flush with mana and have a mana regen spell on, then I will use both for a named. Typically, I don’t rely on it.

Velthorian

still way to cookie cutter, just same kit over and over. really needs some variation at the high end, and new keystone abilities as we level. Like mana regen at level 40 for example.. not asking for a lot, -3 hp +3 mana tick, dark pact.. more utility at hte high end would be wonderful, but they seem dead set against that. Some faster casting spells as we go up the ranks, like EQ Spears, AOE Taunt, and other powerful abilities should be unlocked as we go. As is now playing the class at level 10 and level 60 feels the same because not much in the way of new abilities get unlocked. But im definitely in support of a "Traditional" shadow knight. We need things to look forward to, not feel like we are "Done" at level 20. The lich should have an illusion component like EQ, sk's as of Luclin could turn into a skeleton + mana regen, this would go a long way to making Ogres not suck, cause right now, being a big race is a massive disadvantage with no strength whatsoever, in EQ frontal stun immunity was a -huge- bonus to go with being -huge- and annoyingly sized. The illusion component is particularly useful as "Shrink" if you did not read between the lines. Leave ogres as they are at your own peril, you will see an initial wave of ogres and when people see how bad it sucks they will never play the race again.

Edit: reading some comments about Deluge -- the biggest issue is it's not compeitive with life taps for mana/damage ratio. They need to bump the damage slightly, or lower mana cost slightly. They are "almost" good. And they do stack, sometimes when soloing I will stack the 2 most recent deluge. The problem is when a game is this hard it really pigeon holes you into META -- and efficiency, and from my experience that is snare/fear/taps and little else. As those things are wildly mana effcient for the damage + heal component, or the raw mitigation afforded by fear. When you have to chew though 10k hp on a lvl 20 skeleton, there is no luxury mana left, it's all gotta be balls to the wall most efficient. We are not necros or shaman, we have no mana recovery, and we also don't get to sit around and meditate. They really need to address SK mana, an SK with no mana is a dead SK with no DPS. Not a hard problem to solve.. add a small mana component to the existing life tap aura.. +10 mana per proc or something like that, match the tap or half it for mana regen. Similar to Mental Corruption -- Feels like meele/hybrid are getting the shaft compared to EQ and compared to Cloth MNM. When I compare a EQ Necro vs an MNM Necro they are pretty damn equal, in fact the MNM necro is better in many regards. The same is NOT true of SK, not even close. EQ SK's are way more capable with far more utility and kit, and choices.

Cancel Magic (this is actually huge, with druid dwarf skeletons regen/damage shield/sow every fucking thing that walks by in fallen pass, even my pet kills itself constantly on DS)
Invis (Gather Shadows)
Levitate (Bobing Corpse)
See invis and Infravision in one spell (Dead Eye)
Enduring Breath (bobbing corpse)
Pet Haste
Pet Summon Companion
Pets that don't aggro
Pets that don't handicap you while invis
Origin (Gate) starting at level 5
Affordable Gate Potions that stack
Actually usable summon corpse
Cure diesease
Self Damage Shield (Banshee Aura)
Balanced, useful Harm Touch on it's own cool down/key
Mana Regen with Shrink (Deathly Temptation, level 58, +6 mana tick + Skeleton illusion, effectively shrink)
Mana Leech via Proc (Mental Corruption)
AOE Taunt
Fast Casting spells ie, Spears .5 second cast times
Triple Attack
Fastest Mount in the game, for free, (Unholy Steed) we are knights after all.....

This is not all, but it's some of the biggest differences. It's ALOT. -- I post the above so that all are reminded of what a Shadow Knight is, as many of you have not played EQ in a long time. I was in an active raiding guild just last year. So they did all this, while often times appearing in the TOP 5 DPS on raids. In my raid guild, during certain era's it was not uncommon to see SK's right up there with Monks, when kitted out with raid gear, epic's, and aa's. Especially when placed with a Shaman and Bard all firing epics at the same time. My harm touch hit for 200k+. Everything in the list above except AOE Taunt, and Origin, was available to level 60 shadow knights from the luclin era forward. Most of it was in Veilious, bar the mana regen. This to say nothing of item based utility items (Shrink, Gate, Illusions, Levitate, Portals, bandages, affordable, useful alchemy potions for sow/invis/ivu/regen/cure) Gate is such a defining killer feature, all should have it or none should have it. It's absurd to get filled with 3k copper in 20 minutes then have to stop looting, or run 40 minutes to a goddamn town to bank. That's cruel and unusual punishment and is heavily ratio'ed in cloth favor.

Splendarella

Velthorian,

I don't want to be confrontational but I have to ask, did you play a shadowknight in 1999 - 2003?
A lot of the abilities and spells that you mentioned were added way later to compensate for a declining player base. As players left and raids got smaller changes were made to make up the difference.

I have too many thoughts on this, I hate typing. If you could invite me to a discord and chat would save my old self alot of time.

Splendorella

Velthorian

Splendarella Most of the stuff in that list was available to Level 60 shadow knights from Luclin forward. This was released in 2001. Only a few things where added later. I might have missed one or two things that came a few years later. But not much. Sorry, this argument does not hold up. And we are developing a new game, even if a feature did come out in 2010 on the 15th expansion, that does not mean it should be precluded from discussion. That said -- it's a new game, i don't expect the dev's to line up exactly with EQ, and I don't expect MNM SK's to be cookie cutters. But -- that cloth gap still exist and it's quite large. And yes, I was there, 3000 years ago, on launch day, with my Pentium II 233 and Voodoo, they actually hade a Glide wrapper. (Launch Character) Vanta Elderblaze -- Level 60 Dark Elf Wizard -- Legendary Hero's

ThePanda

jdbertsch im curious on your INT. My life tap does 400. But my Diluge line does 293 + 6 ticks of 151 so roughly 1200 damage?

I get that life tap can be considered 800 because if the heal, but for kiting Diluge is useful as i’m sometimes full HP. Also good when i can create or start with some space to get the extra damage.

Briggs

I honestly like the pet, but I always lament the power budget for my tank class being spent on the pet. I want to be better as myself over having a pet. I think maybe if they ever add in specializations or something where the SK can dps or tank, let the dps spec have a pet? Or let me choose between a pet and something I gain from not having the pet to make myself better at my job.

Velthorian

Briggs Unfortunately pets arnt easy to replace. Their damage type is too potent. Spend a little mana once, and get hours of continuous resource free damage with no qualifiers (like getting hit). Green farming, utility etc. Sure they can cut the pet, but don't pretend like you won't feel that hit. A damage shield, is not going to replace it, and neither is some other damage mechanism that requires resource expenditure.

Mesh

Velthorian
True.

I'm not attached at all to the pet thematically but you cannot just replace a source of passive DPS with active DPS that costs mana on a class that already struggles with mana sustain.

Hoping they've considered this and will add some additional mana-free DPS via the new collectable monster hunter stuff.

Velthorian

Mesh Correct, it will take some real outside the box thinking.. shoe horn pets in another way, like a spell that gives you a proc that summons a shade that follows the target around and hits it. basically a swarm pet. Still has qualifiers, you must hit a target and proc... I don't have a real answer. The most likely outcome will just be that pets are eliminated and we are not appropriately compensated. That's the easiest approach. A combination of Damage Shield, Pet Swarm Proc, some modifications to auras, and faster cast times on taps, i'd love AOE taunt too. It won't be a pet, but it could still be fun. Damage shields are their own thing and open up other shenanigans that are not possible now. Like pulling a dozen green cons and porcupine them down. Whatever DS the go with, had better stack with Ele and Druid DS, or the benefit is nulified in a group, where it counts most.

Mesh

Velthorian
Replacing Aura of Vampirism with a damage shield that drains would be a cool idea.

Instead of the super low proc rate of Aura of Vampirism, turning it into a damage shield would heal you for a small amount every time you're hit for some consistent "mitigation" that's more in-line with the class theme.

jdbertsch

This is my concern as well - they drop pet, but don't really compensate the damage loss from the pet, or the shield you can get from sacrificing a minion. They def can drops DoTs, but we do need compensation in pet dps - which could be solved by a damage shield, or some additional damage to feared or shadow-snared mobs. Lots of ways to take this - heck they can even boost our damgae with a 2handed weapon if that is truly a weapon we prefer.

Mesh

jdbertsch
I really want a parry/riposte system that'd buff mitigation and DPS.

Riposte is such a fun mechanic in every MMO I've seen it in. Especially as a 2H tank with big numbers.

Velthorian

Mesh sounds like a great idea, since vamp aura is pretty crap in it's current state. I guess the only negative is it doesn't stack the same way vamp does in a heavy melee group. I'd still take that trade.

b0ry

I thought it would be cool to have the current pet replaced by a temporary pet that spawns as a 'shadow' when the SK casts feign death. This 'shadow' could have a snap agro spell that targets what the SK has targeted, allowing the them to stand back up and fight while the pet tanks until it dies or it's timer runs out. It could have some really cool utility when splitting camps, as well as when soloing. I'm not sure it would be too useful in a group setting, but the current pet dmg is insignificant in a large group setting anyway.

It would probably have some large draw backs, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Velthorian

b0ry it's not a bad idea, implementation is key. Similiar to mage spell Dyzil's Deafening Decoy, was a high HP, low damage, high taunt pet that could take a beating but not deal much damage on it's own, was a swarm pet.

Tibs

Slam needs to be improved to equal being on par with the other tanks.
Interrupts need to be on par with other tanks too.
These are the areas I think the SK could use improvements.
I do not like using a pet as a tank, IMHO.