are 'agnostic' clerics/paladins intended?

wizard

this came up in the discord so i thought i would trot it out here. clerics and paladins get their power from devoting themselves to a particular god. an agnostic person does not do this. how do 'agnostic' clerics/paladins exist? is this option being selectable at character creation an oversight? if not, why do clerics/paladins who don't worship a god get magic powers from a god? why don't other agnostic people also get magic powers for not doing anything?

Fidric

wizard Shawn's answer

I will continue to argue that that is fine. They're not atheists. They're agnostic. They still believe in their abilities. They still believe they are still capable of channeling their faith in general, their faith in their ability to affect change

Mesh

Not sure what the lore in M&M is but this is also a thing in D&D.

Paladins generate power through absolute devotion but the object of their devotion can be something other than a deity. E.g . An oath or cause.

Clerics can also manifest divine force through strong faith but that faith doesn't necessarily have to be aligned with a specific deity. For example, Blood of Vol (Eberron) believe there's a spark of divinity in every person instead of worshiping an external deity.

After all, technically all people are agnostic. It's often the strength of their faith that's generating the power, not necessarily whether the object of their faith is true/real.

merchant

Their lore so they can do what they want, but does seem weird. Clerics and paladins in fantasy are generally associated with organized religion. They're clergy, you wouldn't see an agnostic cleric because there's no "church of agnosticism" to be clergy for. Same reason you typically wouldn't see clerics and paladins available to tribal races with shamanistic gods.

Mollyscoid

Atheopaganism is a concept that exists in our world, there are those who hold principled and spiritual beliefs even if they do not believe in dieties. To me this makes paladins/clerics who do not purport a belief in a specific diety as more than reasonable.

Shaxx

If you had logged in for five seconds, you could have made a cleric—and... oh, surprise :
Clerics devote their lives to mastering healing and protective powers that stem from their stalwart beliefs and discipline. This is most commonly, but not always, manifested through their faith and service to a deity.

So yes it indeed is intended. Case closed

TheStranger

Fidric I hate the concept, but Shawn is the boss.

To me the entire faith system contradicts it. Allow me to explain.

Within the concept of the Faith system in the game. It's been said you may get spells/abilities as you level up with your chosen deity or cult. The very action of endearing yourself more to a god means you get benefits you otherwise wouldn't get. That's the entire basis for belief in the divine. Within theological doctrine, not just anyone who believed in said deity would attain any sort of supernatural powers. It was only those who were exceptionally devoted. This is the very basis of the Faith system as well as divine attuned classes in fantasy.

The fact that you would choose Cleric as your vocation in life, meant a life of service to your chosen god. The spells you attained through that service were a reward from your god, for your devotion to their cause. Any reason one can give, as to why a Cleric can just really wish super hard that they could heal someone and do so, could easily be given for any class. After all, both Human Wizards and Clerics can worship Relle or be Agnostic. So what is to stop a Wizard in believing just as hard and being able to heal just as often and as much as a Cleric? By that logic...nothing? When you start to let Cleric's just fly because they believe they can, then everyone becomes Peter Pan.

Lastly, why worship a deity at all if there's nothing in it for you? If I can heal myself and others just as well as a follower of Relle, then why do I need Relle? Assuming that through the Faith system we get spells and skills through our continued worship, perhaps a Wizard might get a limited heal via continued worship. However, that entire thought, seems to invalidate Agnostic Clerics.

Verily

Im torn here... As a fantasy game player it obviously does a great disservice to the lore and cohesive feeling that the games world aims to deliver. Theres a sense of compartmentalization that becomes too apparent, it harms the suspension of disbelief or immersion in the role-play. It feels like your character is a set of modules pieced together at the creation screen, the word cleric just means "class I chose".

On the other hand Im a real person with actual faith. So Im grateful theres an option to not have to pretend Im the follower of some trifling demiurge or just some really old powerful people that are hard to kill, like all fantasy gods end up being. At least if agnostic is a choice I can RP as a guy whos just like "I cant know whats up there, but I know it aint those assholes".

Fidric

The flip side of this might be more a cleric/paladin that has learned & performs rituals to various different gods as the situation demands as a toolkit rather than exclusively only dedicating to one. Poly Vs mono.

tuesday

after reading stuff like this thread i've decided that agnostic is by far the best choice for clerics/paladins

Shaxx

As someone who is deep into roleplay myself and also playing much DnD im also totally fine with agnostic clerics. And even in DnD it is possible ( if the GM allows) I mean for example Baldurs Gate 3 , if Shadowheart leaves her old godess behind she can still cast spells /heal etc .... she just finds a new God to follow. Some strict rules see clerics loose their power if they no longer believe in their god.

Sweeb

My name is Picvukin Traijin.

When I was a young boy my fishing village on the sungreet strand was burnt off the map by raiding gnomes. I have yet to meet a gnome who is not a pervert or a coward. They came at night, outnumbering our small village 5 to 1. They sang chants and bellowed praises to their evil god as they killed everyone I have ever known.

I was fortunate to be found in hiding, hot and thirsty by a Priestess of Eltindra the next morning. She took me back to Night Harbor and allowed me to live out my orphaned childhood under the clergy's care. This is where my ritual commitment began. Every morning I would clean and refuel the lanterns set out the night before. In the evening I would tend to our candles and set the lanterns out to help guide travelers to our temple. All the while, I mechanically sang Eltindra's travel hymns with my brothers and sisters.

It was not long before I had gained enough favor to heal very basic wounds. But are these powers from Eltindra? Does she exist? Possibly, after all I reach for the divine and something answers. How can I be sure it is her? The gnomes were able to invoke the same spells our clerics can, the same spells I can! Did they too worship Eltindra under a different name? What hand did she have in my father's murder? At the very least it was a hand of restraint that allowed the gnomes to find the adventurous spirit to raid us.

I have no direct proof of Eltindra's existence, but neither proof nor my own belief is necessary in order for her to be. Proof is a human condition. Do I devote myself and my very spirit to Eltindra? Or Relle? Even she in all her caring, she chose not to safeguard my pregnant mother.

No, I devote myself to the good people of this temple, my adoptive family. To the good people of Night Harbor. I follow what tenets of the good gods I believe a good man should. If that doesn't appease the "good" gods, well heaven itself be damned.

The only thing I am sure of is this: The open road before me will be traveled by this strong body I have grown into, and any gnome on it will be put down. For the good of all.

Until we meet again, be easy friends.
-Picvukin, a fisherman's son.

TheStranger

Shaxx Yeah, I wanna say it was 4th or 5th edition D&D that got rid of Divine Casters needing a god. One of the big reasons I still play 3.5 edition rules. It just doesn't make sense to me. With the logic that a Cleric just really wants to heal someone, being the driving force behind them being able to heal. At that logic, why can't my Wizard with max level bandages, survival and bandage skill, cast a heal? He's been trying to heal people his whole life and clearly really wants to heal someone really bad. Bad enough to get max skill in bandaging. That's far more effort and desire, than a level 1 cleric ever had.

Also, when this individual in question chose their vocation in life (Cleric), for the sole reason, that they just really wanted to heal people. Why didn't they choose Druid or Shaman? The answer is usually because of a particular god being in a particular domain they favor or look well upon or have experience with. Here...not so much apparently. It's just a plot hole within the lore and there is no getting out of it without the most extreme mental gymnastics and even then it's one of those "okay, I give up, whatever" DM answers.

Verily

TheStranger This is more or less my sentiment, but swinging through plot holes with mental gymnastics does sound an awful lot like a creative challenge for a competent writer more than anything at this very early point in the lore as its being established.

Your point about:

TheStranger Why didn't they choose Druid or Shaman?

does seem like a pretty big gap to clear to me but gotta let em cook.

TheStranger

Verily Yeah I mean, like I said in my first post. Shawn is the boss. I love most of his design decisions, but nobody bats a thousand.

I think the question of "why didn't they choose Druid or Shaman" is more a question for the player. Though I admittedly think like a RPer, not just a dude in front of a computer. I understand that's not how most people think, but the developers probably should, when creating lore that lets someone use heal magic, just cause they really really want to. At any rate, I've said my piece on this issue, we seem to be in agreement or at least close enough to be true.

Sweeb

He does not fit the other priests in this game. He has no communion with the natural world be it astral or mundane to fit the druid. He does not commune with spirits, souls or nature to fit the shaman.

He is a man who walks out of west gate with no martial training. With only a club in his hand, hate for gnomes in his heart, and a quest for venom sacs. The gods can choose which mortals they favor. He trudges onward for adventure. For the sake of good. He is stalwart in his beliefs of right and wrong. He showed discipline in completing his tasks at the temple. Whether he likes it or admits to it he is walking the path Eltindra desires of him.

Raybane

Also remember, nobody that doesn't want to play agnostic needs to do that. This is just objecting to what others do that you personally object to.

Verily

Raybane This is just false accusation in bad faith. I object to thematic dissonance and the rejection of basic defined language e.g. cleric is a person with a position of some authority in the hierarchy of a religious institution, and in typical fantasy game rules they receive magic powers and their worldly position because of devout belief. Agnosticism isnt devout belief.

Ive even said earlier in the conversation that Im thankful that Im able to make the nonsensical choice of agnostic priest, so why would I object to someone else making it? Nobody else here has made that objection either, youve only assumed this about others without considering what was actually addressed. Though you could claim that your still correct on the technicality that some are in fact objecting to what the devs are doing. Personally Ive pointed out that the themes and lore are still largely a mystery and that a plot hole can become plot device since the narrative doesnt actually exist yet, a.k.a. let them cook.

Mesh

Verily
Plenty of examples of agnostic or nontheistic Clerics exist in fantasy, including within D&D.

If thematic dissonance is occurring it's because players insist on interpreting the terms subjectively. Not because there's no precedent.

Verily

Mesh And those examples make the word cleric more meaningless with each new precedent, at least in the terms of said fantasy. Or rather it turns it into a thing that just means the class I chose at the creation screen. As theme goes that is inherently interpretive, and its also partially undeveloped at this point, thats why I said let em cook, twice.