Crushed Malachite at lvl 1 is excessive

riverbender

Kirrund
Some will never be satisfied until this is the case, and maybe not even then.
Let's look at this another way. Wearing plate armor? I don't see why you shouldn't take double damage from from electric and probably fire as well, something about specific heat of metals or something. Wouldn't want to miss out on an opportunity for gritty hardcore realistic friction would we? I don't see why you shouldn't be getting heat stroke in Shaded Dunes either.
To make things fair and equitable, all casters will pay the reagent tax.

Fell

@Kirrund please think before rage-posting. Elementalists ALREADY have to pay a fee to cast their pet. That fee should scale reasonably with level. Level 60 elementalists are easily making 100x-500x the cash per hour as a level 1 ... why shouldn't that fee scale as well.

You also forget that I'm also advocating for the same change to the ENCHANTER summon pet. Yes, we don't use it as often as an ELE does, but our class already is paying a fee to buff groups now.

@riverbender this isn't about "friction". The game needs money sinks. They have them now for buff classes; but all classes should have them, melee too.

riverbender

Fell The game needs money sinks.

Absolutely agree with this but I don't think "6 silver every 35 min per Enchanter" is going to be enough. I also don't think reagents are that unfair outside of sacrificing the inventory space for them, but I think the better money sinks are Player Housing/Guild/Economy centered. Not in the current model of tradeskill recipes cost money to make useless items though. The tradeskill economy is where they have a lot of flexibility on this (and a place to clearly differentiate yourself from EQ) but has been on the permanent backburner vs. pressing class balance needs before EA.
Melee has to buy throwing daggers I suppose.

Fell

@riverbender not enough players want houses to make that a valid sink. I don't really like the loss of bag space, but allowing these reagants to stack to 100 makes the hit minimal. Tradeskill leveling isn't a money sink either. Tradeskill OUTPUTS could be -- but right now, all the good tradeskill outputs depend primary on TIME sinks, like harvesting nodes, herbs, etc.

@Kirrund

Also, you are in favor of 35 minute buffs. So this is by your own design.

I literally have dozens of posts here advocating AGAINST 35 minute group buffs (though I support that duration, or even shorter, for ungrouped players.

Kirrund

Fell Rage posting?

And yeah, you missed the point. At 50+ silver a cast, an enchanter can just not summon their pet. They're still an enchanter. They can do everything they need to do in a group. An elementalist doesn't have that choice. It sounds like you just don't know how a lot of classes work, and you seem to be incredibly lacking in information on elementalist. So, I'll fill you in. They traded in their old nuke for two separate abilities. One cannot be used unless there is a pet available. The other does 50% damage unless there is a pet available, and the current numbers are worse than necro lifetap in all ways. So you're looking at, with no pet, summoning bandages, manastones, and spending 182 mana to do 350 damage. And you think spending half a gold or more to be able to do more is equivalent to an enchanter spending the same amount of money to summon their shadowkin pet? Honestly? If, in a hypthetical situation you ran out of money as an elementalist at 60, you could pretty much no longer solo, and you would offer nothing to a group. This is not true of an enchanter.

1-5 silver a cast? Sure, okay. Half a gold or more? That's why it is an insane take.

Fell

@Kirrund no, you miss the point. An elementalist has to have a pet, yes -- but money sinks only work if people PAY them. Elementalists already have to pay a fee to summon a pet; it's high at low levels, but utterly meaningless at high levels.

You do have a valid objection in that elementalists swap pets, and so while paying 50s might be appropriate for a necro who can easily keep the same pet for days on end, it should be lower for an Elie. So -- 25 silver? That's still a VERY low tax when you're killing mobs that drop 10-15 silver each, and potentially items that sell for a plat or more.

Again: as comparison, enchanters are now being asked to pay 6s every 35 minutes to buff their groups. How often do elementalists swap to a different pet? Never seen an elie change pets unless the group composition changes significantly, or they move to a new camp.

Kirrund

Fell You inadvertently hit on another point. The reason you don't see elementalists swap pets, is because it is not worth to swap their pets out because fire/earth/water were completely worthless. Now with the "rework" water elemental might be a contender for certain groups. You will still see air 90% of the time.

But sure, a higher reagent cost is fine. 5 silver per since it is a major class feature.

And don't mistake any of this for being in favor of paying 6s fees to buff a group every 35 minutes. There are better gold sinks to put in the game, and I think this is probably one of the laziest options out there.

Fell

@Kirrund 6 mana regen was far from worthless, esp. in caster-heavy groups. And earth pets had their uses too, particular in tankless groups. A lot of elementalists never learned that their optimal tactics don't just change between solo and group mode, but are dependent on group composition as well.

That said, a 5s fee for a pet that can kill dozens or even hundreds of mobs that drop 10-15s each is still too low to be effective. Money sinks only work when they balance inputs with outputs. Your mental calculation that led to a figure of 5 silver literally began with the thought:, "yeah, that won't impact my cash generation at all."

Kirrund

Fell The 6 mana regen was always bugged to only be 5 mana regen regardless of what the tooltip said, and it never stacked with inquisitor mana regen (which was actually higher than 3 mana regen, regardless of the tooltip) or clarity. Almost every group I was in always had clarity, or could snag it from a nearby group. Water pet was useless 99% of the time.

As far as using an earth elemental to tank, almost never happened. Pretty much always just had a tank in the group, or when we did not have a tank, we opted for unconventional set ups to save on mana like having a ranger ranged kite with snare and taunt arrow, because the earth elemental is a very bad tank that eats mana up. Again, it was always better to just use the air pet in these situations.

It was not a player skill issue as you seem to be suggesting. I think you just give a lot more credence to the use cases of these things because it sounds good and you're basing it on vibes, but in normal play it's not actually that useful.

As far as 5 silver per reagent goes, it would add up over time with multiple other money sinks.

Fell

@Kirrund Your objections are a laundry list of game problems that are being addressed. Such as:

Almost every group I was in always had clarity, or could snag it from a nearby group.

Players depending on buffs from outside the group is the entire reason buffs just got shorted to 35 minutes. And when you level up and get into deeper, harder areas, you can't just run back to town or rely on some other group being nearby to buff you.

As far as using an earth elemental to tank, almost never happened. Pretty much always just had a tank in the group, or
when we did not have a tank, we opted for unconventional set ups to save on mana like having a ranger ranged kite

Try range kiting in a dense packed dungeon zone sometime, see how that works. The earth pet fills a need.

As far as 5 silver per reagent goes, it would add up over time with multiple other money sinks.

No again. A high level player can easily earn 5 GOLD a session off just coin alone, Even ignoring any other drops, and unless your pet is repeatedly dying, you're talking about a 1% money sink for your class. Please explain what other "multiple money sinks" will cost an Elementalist the other 99%?

Kirrund

Fell Players depending on buffs from outside the group is the entire reason buffs just got shorted to 35 minutes. And when you level up and get into deeper, harder areas, you can't just run back to town or rely on some other group being nearby to buff you.

Yeah, it was more like mutual trade of items. Our group traded bandages and manastones and some buffs here and there for other buffs from another nearby group, and we help out if they're in trouble. Socialization, right? Or would you rather all groups be an island, and no groups interact with each other out in the field at all? Doesn't make any sense. You can't be that dense trying to split hairs.

The real reason buffs got shorted to 35 minutes is because of trying to police powerleveling and other nonsensical things that don't matter.

Try range kiting in a dense packed dungeon zone sometime, see how that works. The earth pet fills a need.

Why would I go to a place that's more difficult, with a group not set up for that (missing a tank) and then try to force using an objectively worse option? That would be dumb. With your logic, you can also use a cleric as the tank. Bad example that has nothing to do with a main class ability not being good. A main class ability, that the entire class is built around. Not. Being. Good.

No again. A high level player can easily earn 5 GOLD a session off just coin alone, Even ignoring any other drops, and unless your pet is repeatedly dying, you're talking about a 1% money sink for your class. Please explain what other "multiple money sinks" will cost an Elementalist the other 99%?

The ones that aren't in the game yet, along with 80% of the rest of the game.

Fell

@Kirrund

would you rather all groups be an island, and no groups interact with each other out in the field at all?
Doesn't make any sense. You can't be that dense trying to split hairs.

The person being dense is the one who believes they'll "always have clarity" even if they don't have an enchanter in group. Honestly, it's an outright silly argument and one that leads me to believe you've never even been in some of the harder dungeons in game, where -- assuming you're not the only group in the entire zone -- no other group could reach you without clearing a large amount of mobs. And what happens if "that other group" is doing exactly what you're doing, and hoping they can bum clarity themselves?

The real reason buffs got shorted to 35 minutes is because of trying to police powerleveling

The devs themselves call that flatly wrong. But you know better than them why they made the change, right?

Why would I go to a place that's more difficult, with a group not set up for that (missing a tank) and then
try to force using an objectively worse option? That would be dumb.

What's dumb is the belief you always need a tank for anything but the easiest content. A cleric, enchanter, necro, elementalist, rogue, and, say, a wiz and druid can go anywhere a group with a tank can.

The ones that aren't in the game yet, along with 80% of the rest of the game.

You didn't answer the question. If you don't like Elementalists having an actual money sink for their pet, tell us what you DO want to cost them money. Be specific.

Kirrund

Fell The person being dense is the one who believes they'll "always have clarity" even if they don't have an enchanter in group. Honestly, it's an outright silly argument and one that leads me to believe you've never even been in some of the harder dungeons in game, where -- assuming you're not the only group in the entire zone -- no other group could reach you without clearing a large amount of mobs. And what happens if "that other group" is doing exactly what you're doing, and hoping they can bum clarity themselves?

Are you serious? I'm telling you, 100%, what happened during my leveling experience, same as everything I say.

The devs themselves call that flatly wrong. But you know better than them why they made the change, right?

Yep. They can call it whatever they want.

What's dumb is the belief you always need a tank for anything but the easiest content. A cleric, enchanter, necro, elementalist, rogue, and, say, a wiz and druid can go anywhere a group with a tank can.

Right, you have proven my point. And in that group, I wouldn't use the earth pet, because we have two charm pets and a rogue plus ele pet, so I would use the air pet again. What I am trying to tell you is that there is almost no situations in which you would want to use the earth pet, and zero situations where you would want to use the fire pet.

You didn't answer the question. If you don't like Elementalists having an actual money sink for their pet, tell us what you DO want to cost them money. Be specific.

I'm not a fan of costly reagents. 5-10s per malachite would be fine though. There's also horse costs, tradeskills, housing, and whatever other secondary/tertiary costs they want to add into the game.

Gooooo

We got to resummon our pet after every level up. They do not level up together with character.
For a fresh new player, it's going to be very costly.

Fell

Gooooo Fresh new players are already paying a reasonable fee -- maybe even too high a fee -- for the component cost of their pet. We're talking about high level characters only.

@Kirrund

Are you serious? I'm telling you, 100%, what happened during my leveling experience, same as everything I say.

You missed buff duration just being halved, because of experiences like yours. You also never played tough content, where strolling over to a nearby group to get fresh buffs every hour isn't possible.

Yep. The [devs] can call it whatever they want.

So you're doubling down on the claim that devs are outright lying here?

you have proven my point. And in that group, I wouldn't use the earth pet, because we have two charm pets
and a rogue plus ele pet, so I would use the air pet again.

And you'd get your group killed, because you DON'T have two charm pets (mobs marked uncharmable). And when the rogue got replaced by a wizard and the enchanter left for a second mage, the best combo was an earth and water pet, not two air pets. With all respect, it seems you haven't played much of the game's content. I admit I haven't seen much use for fire pets, but the best and most experienced elementalists on the server find plenty of use cases for the other three pets.

Kirrund

Fell

Fell, you make a lot of assumptions. I really don't understand where you get this stuff.

Tsunamisan

Keep in min Necro has no sink on their pet al all. Totally imbalances the pet summoning scale.
In Ail,Vorith:
-Casting pets needs to use more than one reagent at higher level
Etheral dagger cost 60c
Malachite costs 88c
Bone chips Free -- Perhaps Nec needs full stack to summon a pet. - Nec needs a money sink in another place.

Reagent cost for group spells are fine but those spells should also last longer and parties need to learn what spells actually cost. Reimbursement should be a thing. Other wise people are only getting the reagent-less versions.

Qorsk

Oo I like the idea of necro needing an entire skeleton to summon a skeleton. Can you imagine how many skeletons theyll have in their clos...i mean bank?🍻

Tsunamisan

yah something like that. The sink would be that they need to trade for more bones or ghoul/zombie corpses rather than having to buy off vendors. This makes it harder but doesn't impact the necro solo ability too much since they can solo farm it too. Just takes time as apposed to 1bone chip per pet like it is now. Hoping this will get addressed in their revamp.

« Previous Page