Monk viability at mid to late levels

tukor

I made a noob monk and i must admit it, i dont know how to play it lol.
When I was pulling multiple mobs... I’d use FD, and often they’d all leave at once, so I hadn't really accomplished anything. Sometimes one would stay behind, but it wasn't the one I’d actually damaged—though other times it was. I feel like I missed something here XD.

Fubsy

tukor

You're not really missing anything, FD still buggy with mob resets at times. Use the tools in the kit like @BobWendal described. Pinning shot, aoe stun, double handed snare etc etc, also learn to use los around corners to help as well. I was talking about this with a couple of other monks. Good clean FD splitting is definetely an art - but keep at it and keep experimenting and you'll start to catch the nuances of it.

BobWendal

tukor root one and fd after taking the others away. If you can LoS the first one even better. Waiting on the loitering mechanic is a gamble and feels bad 90% of the time.

BobWendal

Unchainedfury I fully agree that a good necro or sk can split just fine. Its just nice after hearing non stop about how there's no reason to bring a monk as x class can do y thing better we finally have people complaining that we are required. I do worry for sk and necro having seen every other lull get nerfed pretty hard in the reworks. I like the idea of different classes being better at different pull types and hopefully you can retain that.

Fell

Unchainedfury When I said necros can't FD pull, I meant they can't in Fallen Watch. As for SoW, you have it backwards: the higher the mob density, the LESS need there is for SoW. It trivializes a camp if, when you get in trouble, you can just run to zone. It's also far from inconsistent that SoW doesn't work in FW .. the entire justification for removing it in dungeons is that you're isolated from the beneficial aspects of nature ... and what could be more isolated than FW?

Unchainedfury

Fell

I've pulled FW many times on Necro. Just takes the will to do it and learning from mistakes/deaths.

Respectfully, i disagree. Having the option of which direction to pull due to mob density is just as important as the typical radius without sow, especially with the limited amount of safe areas. FW is an outdoor zone and should follow every other outdoor zone policy regarding SoW.

Also, SoW should be able to be cast indoors now that the effect is nullified. This way, SoWers don't need follow the group outside to cast and can just refresh at the end of a grind session indoors, say their farewells, and gate out.

Fell

@Unchainedfury unsure who your necro is, but we've been in pretty much every day: never seen a necro pulling anywhere, except perhaps near zone. Have you actually tried the higher level mobs? And SoW or not, you always have the option as to which direction to pull -- SoW just trivializes the risk factor when you can so easily outrun the mobs.

SoW is turned off in FW to increase the challenge factor. And I doubt you're actually concerned about "consistency" considering that many "outdoor" zones have massive INDOOR areas where SoW still works -- the buildings in TE, for instance, or the rat tunnels in FP.

Unchainedfury

Fell

Elcid

Unchainedfury

Fell SoW just trivializes the risk factor when you can so easily outrun the mobs.

The mob density is so high, even after reduction, that this isn't a factor. Mobs hit for 550 per hit, in some areas. Discounting this fact with a 1500-1800 hp puller is leaving out critical variables. The Risk is supremely high: getting stuck on an object, 1 crit failure on lull, crit failure on FD, invulnerability not up.

My first 8 hours in FW were nothing but corpse retrievals, while naked for most of it, learning the zone.

"And I doubt you're actually concerned about "consistency".." You're approaching the realm of bad-faith discussion, to which I don't engage in. Fix the indoor areas where sow still works, make it consistent.

And...allow SoWers to cast indoors now so they don't have to follow a group outside and can just gate at the end of a session.

Fell

Unchainedfury

The mob density is so high, even after reduction, that this isn't a factor. Mobs hit for 550 per hit,

We've found a few that hit for 1200 per hit. Which is why SoW should be disabled ... if you aggro these with SoW, you have the option to flee, which shouldn't be allowed in a zone like this.

Discounting this fact with a 1500-1800 hp puller is leaving out critical variables. The risk is supremely high...

1500 hp puller? My enchanter buffs to >2500 hp. Our monk well above that, and our tank over 4500. Any 1500 hp puller is going to have trouble in FW unless they use unconventional tactics.

In any case, you seem to be contradicting yourself ... you were saying a necro could pull successfully in FW; now you're arguing the risk is too high without SoW ...?

"And I doubt you're actually concerned about "consistency".."

SoW works in INDOOR areas of zones tagged outdoors. If that isn't inconsistent, then why is it inconsistent to have SoW disabled in the outdoor areas of Fallen Watch, a massive indoors keep?

Again: you must consider WHY SoW doesn't work in some areas -- there is both a game reason (increase challenge) and a lore reason (certain areas are isolated from nature). FW fits both parameters.

Unchainedfury

Fell

Before I respond, I'd like to ask a couple of questions, for context.

OP and others, My Apologies for this quick off course sight-seeing detour. 🙂

Fell f you aggro these with SoW, you have the option to flee, which shouldn't be allowed in a zone like this.

Why shouldn't you have the option to flee in FW1? (more zones otw for it due to being so large)

If you're anywhere inside the Keep, or up top and beyond, most classes won't be able to flee at all, even with sow.

How far do you think they're going to get with sow?
Is the primary idea to minimize trains?
How many "safe" camp areas do you think there are in FW, discounting the zone in and Trimminax encircling courtyard?

Fell

Unchainedfury Why shouldn't you have the option to flee in FW1?
If you're anywhere inside the Keep, or up top and beyond, most classes won't be able to flee at all, even with sow.

Not quite true. I won't elaborate, except to say there are many more paths DOWN in FW than there are UP. And even ignoring that and without SoW, some classes are able to flee all the way from stables to zone, esp. if another group (or they themselves recently) have cleared some of what's in the way.

How many "safe" camp areas do you think there are in FW, discounting the zone in and Trimminax encircling courtyard?

Quite a few actually; I haven't been really counting, but I can name a half dozen off the top of my head -- I'm sure there are several times that.

Unchainedfury

Fell

Thank you.

Why shouldn't you have the option to flee in FW1?
Is the primary idea to minimize trains?

Mesh

BobWendal

At 58 I've main tanked in most of the high level exp areas with little issue, it's not as good as a plate tank but it works.

Been pondering a tank for a 3man lately. Lost interest in the Monk when water stance was removed but reading through some of these recent threads brought it back into the equation.

I want a tank that can also pull for the small group so it's a toss up between Shadow Knight and Monk.

I feel like Shadow Knight can do a lot of what Monk does in terms of FD pulling and be a more durable tank but Monk would contribute more DPS if it's capable of tanking adequately. It's a question of how much percentage-wise each class does better than the other, I guess.

Never seen a Monk main tanking anything challenging so I don't have any first hand experience to go on.

Tough choice.

Krooguh

Mesh monk is not a tank and mitigates pretty poorly

Mesh

Krooguh
I know Monk isn't a dedicated tank class but multiple players with high level Monks are saying they're main tanking end-game dungeons.

If it's doable, the extra DPS would be valuable in a small group over a traditional tank.

BobWendal

Mesh Overall hard to say as we haven't seen the SK rework yet, but sounds like SK is probably what you're looking for. If there ends up being a large dps discrepancy, your healer should be able to do more damage since you will be taking less damage as a dedicated tank. While monk CAN tank higher end stuff, it is nowhere near as tanky as a plate tank. As you get past lvl 30 you will notice the damage you take starts increasing and your healer will have to focus more and more on solely keeping you alive. You also have less aggro control as a monk.

If you end up picking monk to tank, make sure you grab sta/agi gear to help out. I am not in BiS by any means, but I run about 102 str, 66 dex, 98agi and 48 sta and it works ok.

Mesh

BobWendal
That's a good point. I guess a lot of the extra DPS I might gain from choosing Monk would be lost because I'd have to sacrifice a lot of DPS stats to build AGI/STA in order to tank.

Fell

Unchainedfury Why shouldn't you have the option to flee in FW1?

Because it trivializes risk. If you can always run from a mistake, then you don't fear making them.

There were several zones in EQ that literally didn't HAVE an exit, or one that required you to do a vast amount of clearing to once entering. There was even one zone (VP) in which you literally couldn't gate or port out of once entering .... you either cleared out, or stayed forever. Obviously high danger zones like this aren't for everyone ... but the idea every zone in the game should come with training wheels on it is flawed to the core.

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