Shaman is in a purty gud state

nyslater

In the Necromancer information on what will be changing with the rework, they mention "Risk/reward mechanics around health and resource management"

Don't you think it would be dumb if the risk/reward was more mana regen in exchange for a 2 minute debuff that reduced lifetap healing by 80%?

Qorsk

Oof, i strongly disagree with the scaling, but even with that I think its an S tier ability and should only be used when you feel safe enough to, otherwise just use the reg consume.

...Still though, it is the only spell in the game that arguably gets worse as you level. Only played all the healers classes to high 20s or low 30s, not doing that massive grind on a beta just to test things for them haha.

🍻

TexKSAH

Fell OMG you are so fricken clueless!!!!

I never said slow sucks. I never said to remove it. All I said was YOUR constant statements that you can reduce a mob's TOTAL DPS (Do you not understand that TOTAL DPS includes spells, buffs, special attacks, melee abilities, ranged, procs, kicks, bashes, etc as well as base auto-attack melee? TOTAL means ALL DPS) by 50% with just 110 mana is BLATENLY FALSE! You can ONLY reduce base auto-attack melee DPS with a slow, not TOTAL DPS.

Tadorm

Well, I don't think the point is if the total dps or not is 50% or whatever, the point is that adding a debuff from healing for 2mins on "Canni" is breaking the gameplay or way of play of a shaman. You can reduce the mana/hp ratio and quantity given, you can increase the recast time to 1 minute, or you can remove the canni totally from the spells of the shaman and modify the Hp Regen on the Bear form to Mana Regen like Cleric and Druid has... but you prefer to kill a class, that has to take damage yes or yes debuffing early, and also has to heal a party. And the pet thing, I don't really care, the pet in EQ was more an issue than extra dps because it was too low to do real damage and was all the time breaking mezzes, because the Shaman gets aggro early. The only nice thing about the pet was farming low level faction or bat wings without having to persue running mobs.

odz

Qorsk i don't disagree, i think a 2 minute debuff is just to limit any degeneracy involving hot swapping consumes or loading two different variants onto the bar, and i think the ms % is a bit higher than it needs to be, but i'd rather they keep it close to the chest for now and tune into a softer edge with the full release of the game.

more to your point, not only does the ms% increase as you level, but the efficiency decreases from ~ 1.25 at 12 to ~ 1.12 at 60, so i agree, it does feel quite strange that the spell gets worse as you progress, but it's mostly to account for the heavy wisdom coefficients present on our healing spells as well as the fact that they get more cost effective as you level. our revival line at max rank, for example, boasts a massive ~ 1.29 wisdom coefficient which translates to a hefty ~ 3.7 hpm at just 150 wisdom.

before this forum devolved into what it is now, i was (read: am) a big proponent of a stacking consume debuff that allowed you to maintain a relatively harmless debuff for low intensity play but ramped up to a higher debuff % if you were spamming consume every 8-30 seconds.

however, the more i've played with it the more comfortable i've gotten with the idea of being unhealable, and i think it's certainly in a more than playable state. overall, shaman power level is very good, and if there weren't so much vitriol and bad faith posting it would be nice to discuss mechanical improvements to the class to help build a stronger identity beyond JUST cannibalize, but here we are.

Luda

Qorsk
Im at 82% at 50.

Fell

TexKSAH

OMG you are so fricken clueless!!!! I never said slow sucks. I never said to remove it

For the last time: tone down the ad hominem. What you complained about was the change to slow, when its actually a boost to it, rather than a nerf. The vast majority of the time, the new slow will cost you less mana than the old one.

Do you not understand that TOTAL DPS includes spells, buffs, special attacks, melee abilities, ranged,
procs, kicks ....

Slow affected ranged damage no less than melee. And in any decent group, spell damage is effectively zero, and many others besides myself have repeatedly told you. You're right about melee special attacks -- but most mobs do the vast majority of their damage in standard melee. You put a 50% slow on most mobs, their damage is going to drop by so close to 50% that you need a parser to tell it's actually only 47.9%.

In any case, I ask you again: what point do you believe you're making? Shaman slow is BY FAR the most powerful debuff in the game. I asked if you wanted it removed, because all you seem to do is try to convince others how ineffective it is.

Tadorm

Fell I think you are mistaken, the best debuff is mezz, because reduces the damage of the adds to 100%. After that slow is the best debuff, and? What's your point? Because if they remove Slow from the formula of the game, they will have to rebalance the entire damage system on all the game because everything is counting on 40-50% slow for endgame damage calculations. And also, that spells can be interrupted doesn't mean the damage is not there, it just means there are other "debuffs" or skill to prevent damage, not only Slow.

Fell

Tadorm

I think you are mistaken, the best debuff is mezz, because reduces the damage of the adds to 100%

Except you can kill a mob while slowed. You can't kill it while mezed. Not to mention that, with a little care and once your camp is initially broken, there are no adds to mez anyway.

What's your point?

Sorry: this began on another thread so my point wasn't clear. The point was that shaman HAVE slow; clerics and druids do not. When factoring in healing effectiveness, slow makes a shaman superior to a druid in raw healing in all cases where an enchanter is not in group, and even in some (admittedly corner cases) superior to a cleric.

Tadorm

Fell Yes, and again, you are mistaken, because you are substracting all the possible cases to just the case that proofs your point, and this is a game, all cases are always there every day you play. And again, the slow puts the Shaman in a position that neither Cleric or Druid had to go... and that position is taking agro and damage from mobs that forbid him from being sitting down and comfortable meditating, reducing his heal/mana effectiveness due his extra "work" in any party and any moment, while you nerf his canni in a way that he loses all the possibility to ever use it, while the other 2 classes have mana regeneration buffs and dont have to do other thing than heal.

-Cleric has the best heals, just needs to meditate and keep healing.
-Druid has similar heals to shaman, but Summer Seasson gives him +20% effectiveness to his heals.
-Shaman has slow, that gives him less mana but less urge or difficulties to heal back up your tank later. More Early Agro, combined with only extra way of recovering mana, something that removes Hp from you, but now, make you impossible to heal yourself because you can't use your only source of extra mana that your class can have because you dont have Mana Regen buffs like Cleric and Druid and can't meditate as much. Please, if the new Canni its too OP, again, increase recast time, reduce quantity of mana recovered, or remove it and give the Shaman a proper FT buff.

Growlron

Fell Shaman slow is BY FAR the most powerful debuff in the game.

Fell This is a fallacy. Utterly fabricated and unsubstantiated by evidence.

Charm is by far the most powerful debuff in the game. Period. Its not even a discussion. Charm not only reduces an enemies damage to the party by 100%, it increases the parties DPS output and tanking ability.

All Mez type spells are also equal or more powerful and impactful then slow. Fear spells are in the discussion as well.

What a bold faced lie filled to the brim with anti shaman hatred.

Growlron

Fell I think you are mistaken, the best debuff is mezz, because reduces the damage of the adds to 100%

Except you can kill a mob while slowed. You can't kill it while mezed. Not to mention that, with a little care and once your camp is initially broken, there are no adds to mez anyway.

So what??

I fight the enemy.. mez it , reset my team, continue the fight, repeat until it dies and we live. Its the same outcome. Just because it doesnt fit your anti shaman narrative does not make it inaccurate.

Slow helps the partys survivability. Mez does so equally or better then slow. Id argue Mez has saved significantly more deaths and party wipes then slow ever has or could.

Fell

Tadorm

the slow puts the Shaman in a position that neither Cleric or Druid had to go... and that position is taking agro and damage from mobs

Eh? All priests take aggro. Shamans get a little MORE aggro from the slow, but that is MORE than counterbalanced by the fact that you're now being beat on BY A SLOWED MOB. When a cleric or druid gets aggro, they're not only taking twice the damage, but being hit twice as fast, which makes channeling a heal much more difficult.

Druid has similar heals to shaman, but Summer Seasson gives him +20% effectiveness to his heals.

Which means slow gives shaman a 30% advantage when druid is in Summer, and a 50% advantage when the druid isn't. (ok, knock 5% off those figures because slow isn't quite a full 50% reduction).

I understand your concerns about the canni changes, but other shaman have weighed in here saying that, with a little forethought you can safely cast it nearly as much. Personally, I think the 2 minute timer is a bit excessive -- 60 seconds would be better, or even a debuff that starts at 100%, but drops to zero over that period.

Fell

Growlron I fight the enemy.. mez it , reset my team, continue the fight, repeat until it dies and we live. Its the same outcome. Just because it doesnt fit your anti shaman narrative does not make it inaccurate.

No what makes it inaccurate is the idea that -- no matter how long you mez a mob for -- you eventually have to wake it up and let it beat on someone to kill it. Mez doesn't remove damage, it merely defers it.

And please stop pretending that anyone who wants class balance is "anti-shaman" Shaman were very overpowered before. And with the tiniest of tweaks to the new canni, I think they'll be perfectly balanced.

TexKSAH

Fell What you complained about was the change to slow, when its actually a boost to it, rather than a nerf. The vast majority of the time, the new slow will cost you less mana than the old one.

I just pointed out the change to slow was a nerf and one of many nerfs we got and it is (reduced duration by 67% but only reduced mana by 50%). I never said it wasn't still effective. Just said we would have to cast it more often in some cases.

Fell And in any decent group, spell damage is effectively zero, and many others besides myself have repeatedly told you.

But you continue to tell others repeatedly that "YOU reduce total DPS by 50% with just 110 mana". You keep IGNORING the rest of your group that stopped 100% of spell damage WITHOUT YOU as well as ignoring buff damage, special attacks, etc.....

Fell In any case, I ask you again: what point do you believe you're making?

I thought I made that pretty obvious many times. My only point is you are taking credit for things YOU are not doing by saying you stop 50% of a mobs DPS with just 110 mana. With just slow and NO OTHERS in the group stopping DPS, you would only be reducing TOTAL DPS on average by maybe 25-30% with a 50% slow.

Fell

Growlron Charm is by far the most powerful debuff in the game. Period. Its not even a discussion. Charm not only reduces an enemies damage to the party by 100%, it increases the parties DPS

Was that a joke? If charm cuts a mob's damage to zero, why do I need so much healing in a group? Have you played this game?

Again: charm is not a debuff. It's not crowd control. If you KEEP a charm pet across pulls, it's just 1 mob less out of several hundred you kill a game session. And if you DON'T keep the pet across pulls, then its still doing all the damage it normally would ... just slightly deferred.

Fell

TexKSAH I just pointed out the change to slow was a nerf

But as many have explained to you, it's not a nerf. It was intended as a boost, and it is. The vast majority of mobs will die fast enough so that the new slow will save you mana. The old one cost you 250 mana -- the new one only 110 ... and it is a RARE case where you'll have to cast it more than 1-2 times on one mob. And in the rare case you're taking more than 3 minutes to kill a mob, you'd have to cast the old one twice anyway.

You keep IGNORING the rest of your group that stopped 100% of spell damage WITHOUT YOU

Those other players aren't priests. Context matters. We're comparing relative strengths of PRIESTS here, in regards to class balance.

Tadorm

Fell And again, you are mistaken. A little MORE aggro in an slowed mob + a -20 or 30% HP than them, because you need to cannibalize yourself to keep up the mana that you lose from debuffing and not being able to meditate, it's way more riskier but basically, from the 3 healers classes, make Shaman a class more active an entertaining, not more OP. If you are sour because your cleric or druid need to be meditating their entire live, I am sorry, but a shaman need to be active and being a healer, because now there are no complete healing and the 3 healer classes have to be able to heal a group.
Again you come back with your made up % taking out everything else. Sorry you didn't do your work with damage logs, I didn't do it either, but while shaman uses his slow, he spends mana and is not meditating, and cannot sit right away because is drawing attention, and has to be extra careful because he is never 100% HPs, 1 resist blows up your entire example to pieces. So, yes, shaman has good spells to make a viable healer, he is not op, he has a different play style, and when everything is going smooth, slow right away, perfectly taunt, no adds... Shaman is an amazing healer. But that is not the case, and Shaman has to be a good healer, like the druid and like the Cleric, because then what is the purpose of creating a healer class, if you are not able to heal?

Ichor

odz
I agree I like the flavor of shaman debuffing themselves for mana uptime and sacrificing self healing to maintain high levels of mana, Similar to the necromancer lich line. I think it brings a level of risk that's appropriate compared to other classes that have much worse mana regen. Play smart and you'll have constant mana and largely not be touched by mobs with your toolkit, play dumb and you're at higher risk of death for not paying attention to what youre pulling aggro on. DoTs, CC, Dispel, Purge, Invis, Gate, Ritual of Escape, and the suite of great buffs and debuffs will prevent a good shaman from ever dying, and especially from ever dying due to the fault of the debuff itself. If you need to just root something over and over until the debuff drops to heal yourself again that's still a lot more survivability than most other classes ever obtain.

I agree a lot of the complaints across the shaman forums are extremely bad faith and childish, this class' toolkit is very powerful and forgiving.

TexKSAH

Fell Those other players aren't priests. Context matters. We're comparing relative strengths of PRIESTS here, in regards to class balance.

Your still taking credit for what they are doing by stating "YOU" reduce total DPS of a mob by 50% with only 110 mana. So you want to take credit for what they are doing, but ignore that they are doing it becasue they are not priests. I get it now. Thanks for clarifying that.

« Previous Page Next Page »