How to solo effectivly in EA?

Fell

But when CC gets a hit from off tanking type meta's that will probably arise, what then? What's left? nukes?

I'm not sure any group is going to survive off-tanking 6-8 mobs at once ... especially not if they add more FW-difficulty mobs.

In any case, your question is like asking, "what are you going to do when there's no money in your bank account -- starve?" I'm going to work to solve the problem!

CC should be integral to the game. The problem now is that (FW aside) none of the camps in game present any sort of difficulty for even a four-man group, much less a full one. I'm hoping the difficulty level gets amped up hard.

This is what turned me against raiding in EQ back in the day. Raids you literally sat there until you got asked for clarity

In earliest EQ, chanters were one of the most needed classes: Fear, Hate, Sky -- all required massive crowd control. Even some later raids too -- don't even think about Emp Ssra or Rathe Council without 3 good enchanters. But yeah, it was lazy thinking by devs that eventually removed the CC aspect not just from raids, but -- due to power creep -- grouping as well.

Alarkos

I just leveled to 5 on the beta with the new Enchanter changes.

I was solo the entire time. Biggest take away: be patient. Don't pull things that are yellow con. I mostly focused on blue cons and some white. The way I kept my pet from dying too much was as follows:

Mez'd the mob to open, then cast magic break from max distance.
Debuff
Torment 2 - 3 times before the mob hit me while kiting backwards between GCD's.
Then engaged my pet and let it taunt the mob off
Auto attack

Rinse repeat. I also made bandages from cloth off skellies which helps reduce downtime quite a bit.

Transcendent

Fell

Fell I'm not sure any group is going to survive off-tanking 6-8 mobs at once ... especially not if they add more FW-difficulty mobs.

Fell (FW aside) none of the camps in game present any sort of difficulty for even a four-man group, much less a full one.

What?

So CC is FW only then? I guess if the bank account is empty and there's no other jobs to get, you do just starve. Because the solution isn't in the toolkit as much as it is asking the devs to make changes which may never occur; or you charm solo which is for now potentially unviable for a dedicated play style which means we wait and hope the devs un-nerf it? Unlikely to get back something that was removed I think so I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket right now.

Fell In earliest EQ, chanters were one of the most needed classes: Fear, Hate, Sky

This is true, early on, as time progressed people had to make due without enchanters for the most part because mezzes were broken, people dot mobs and can no longer be mezzed for the duration people nuke the wrong target or melee the wrong target and what have you. So at least on my server, they would dedicate SHDs PALs and WARs to pickup tanking when needed and that became more reliable the more people built around it. Keeping in mind things like Chardok Royals or even Rathe and so on were events, most of the time you weren't doing much as an ENC outside of buffing. To have an integral part of the boss fight I think that's worth it BUT most of the bosses you weren't important and the clearing of a zone you typically weren't either.

This is what I'm concerned about, that in groups CC will be a bonus people can increasingly live without coupled with raid content that doesn't require it at all really. Will we see mobs that could be mezzed being off tanked or will we see Rathe Council type mezzing scenarios where it's mandatory for half the fight? Who knows, but I don't think they're going to center complexity of content around a niche class like ENC. I think most stuff centers around a core of melee tanking and healing with variations of that in DOTs, DDs and other mix-ups of that combination, life taps to heal or pet DPS versus direct character damage and so on. A class that controls the flow of battle so directly is a black sheep.

Fell

Transcendent

So CC is FW only then?

Enchanter (or even bard) CC is necessary only in FW, yes. Everywhere else, it can add efficiency, or save time on pulls, or keep someone else in the group from having to root, toss a lull, or FD split -- and that only to do the initial break, then no CC of any type is required.

I don't think they're going to center complexity of content around a niche class like ENC.

Niche? MnM is claimed at least as an old-school MMO, which means a "balanced" group required the holy triad: tank, priest, and crowd control. And zones like FW have shown that Devs do indeed have a strong interest in creating content that IS a challenge for a well-balanced group.

Transcendent

Fell Niche? MnM is claimed at least as an old-school MMO, which means a "balanced" group required the holy triad: tank, priest, and crowd control. And zones like FW have shown that Devs do indeed have a strong interest in creating content that IS a challenge for a well-balanced group.

I disagree with you, the holy trinity wasn't Tank, Heals and CC it was Tank, Heals and DPS.

ENC with charm is filling the DPS side, that has been nerfed, not that it should be the greatest of all dps, but if it's taken down to mediocre it's not worth the risk

ENC with CC is focusing the groups heals and DPS and Tanking into single targets for maximum effect. If CC isn't really needed and is just a bonus, it's one step from the grave once people get better at their classes or items create power creep potentially. This is my concern.

Fell

Transcendent

I disagree with you, the holy trinity wasn't Tank, Heals and CC it was Tank, Heals and DPS.

No. Not in Classic. That was one of the biggest complaints -- you NEEDED an enchanter (or a hella sharp bard) to do any tough content (which included most every dungeon).

In the very earliest of EQ, the Trinity was even more explicit -- the priest was a cleric: druids and shamans were limited to lighter content or backup healer. The Trinity was the first 3 players -- then you filled in the other 3 with rando-DPS ... or for the very toughest of content, a backup healer and possibly a FD puller.

Over time, druids and shamans gained healing power, and CC was deprecated, and the Trinity thus changed.

AI Overview: "In classic EverQuest, the "Holy Trinity" refers to Tank, Healer, and Crowd Control (CC) rather than the modern Tank, Healer, and DPS..."

MMORPG Forums: "The original EQ trinity is not the trinity of today"

If CC isn't really needed and is just a bonus, it's one step from the grave... This is my concern.

And mine too. I agree absolutely. Let's ensure the devs realize that many players actually WANT non-trivial content.

Ucuri

best Duo now for reverse Charm?
Cleric?
or Druid/Shaman with SoW?

Doozle90

Ucuri With reverse charming you don't really need much else other than the charming class. Now I will say a few months ago before the reworks I duo'd with an Ench on my Druid and it worked out really well to keep them alive if something went wrong but the main thing was roots/5min snare to help easily maintain mobs and charm pets. So my vote would be Druid for the snare, roots and heals,

Transcendent

Fell No. Not in Classic. That was one of the biggest complaints -- you NEEDED an enchanter (or a hella sharp bard) to do any tough content (which included most every dungeon).

In the very earliest of EQ, the Trinity was even more explicit -- the priest was a cleric: druids and shamans were limited to lighter content or backup healer. The Trinity was the first 3 players -- then you filled in the other 3 with rando-DPS ... or for the very toughest of content, a backup healer and possibly a FD puller.

Over time, druids and shamans gained healing power, and CC was deprecated, and the Trinity thus changed.

AI Overview: "In classic EverQuest, the "Holy Trinity" refers to Tank, Healer, and Crowd Control (CC) rather than the modern Tank, Healer, and DPS..."

MMORPG Forums: "The original EQ trinity is not the trinity of today"

I'll admit that I was wrong here, but in my searching it shows DPS which lends to confusion

"The MMO "Holy Trinity" is a classic game design structure dividing group roles into the Tank, the Healer, and the Damage Dealer (DPS).
The Three Core Roles
Tank: The armored front-line fighter who absorbs enemy attacks and holds monster attention ("aggro") to protect others.
Healer: The support character who restores health and keeps the party alive.
Damage Dealer (DPS): The offensive specialist focused on high damage output to defeat enemies quickly.

Medium
·kionay
+3"

If this is the core Trinity though like you say, Tank, Priest, Enc then why is the game seemingly shaping up so poorly if their vision is classic MMO? I'm just confused as to what their vision is at the moment.

As an aside, wasn't Feign Death being used to pull not within the original scope and thus why they nerfed it? Players used an escape mechanic to reduce the risk of content instead of surviving a losing battle.

Fell

Transcendent That "modern" version is really whack. First of all, there are more than 3 different roles (support, for instance). Secondly, pretty much ALL classes do some damage -- but most classes do not heal, nor (in early EQ) could they tank or control crowds.

The Trinty was called "Holy" because with those three specific classes -- and a bit of extra random damage -- you could go anywhere, and kill anything. But lack even just one of those three, and you were limited to easy outdoor camps or the entrance zonelines of dungeons.

"As an aside, wasn't Feign Death being used to pull not within the original scope and thus why they nerfed it?

Yeah, that was truly ironic. Devs never considered FD as a core pulling mechanic ... players worked it out on their own.

Transcendent

Fell I don't know how limited people would be in all cases. Necros and Mages always solo'd well, wizards and druids could as well. So, the holy trinity wasn't mandatory for getting exp, getting max level and then making dungeons more accessible without perfect balance for loot grabbing.

Fell

Transcendent Necros and Mages always solo'd well, wizards and druids could as well. So, the holy trinity wasn't mandatory for getting exp, getting max level and then making dungeons more accessible without perfect balance for loot grabbing.

The Holy Trinity was a requirement for tough content, not xp'ing. No one was soloing camps like Estrella, King Tranix, or Ghoul Lord in Classic EQ.

Transcendent

Fell No, but that was originally raid content that would require some CC but also lots of dps if you can muster. Going to LGuk in the early days with a group of 50's or sol b with 50s with one group instead of 2 to 3 groups in their 30s and 40s is wildly different. Also, AM was no where near as hard as Ghoul Lord, same with Hand, or Frenzy or Savant or Ass/Supp or Ritualist and so on.

King Tranix / Skarlon / Mage wouldn't be considered a camp either because of respawn time and / or Naggy. That was top tier raiding content that required masses of everyone.

Fell

Transcendent None of those required a raid or anything but that 'Holy Trinity' balanced group. My group used to swim thru the lava tubes daily to farm the named FGs ... nor did the potential presence of Naggy affect that.

Transcendent

Fell ? FG's are bellycasters iirc and not mezzable. Also you did this in your 30s and 40s when that would be hard for Efreeti Lord let alone Tranix?

Fell

Transcendent ? FG's are bellycasters iirc and not mezzable.

They are charmable, however, and easy to split. And no, lol, we didn't do them in our 30s ... not sure why that's even a question. We're talking about level-appropriate hard content. ANYTHING is hard if its 15 levels above you.

Transcendent

Fell They are charmable, however, and easy to split. And no, lol, we didn't do them in our 30s ... not sure why that's even a question. We're talking about level-appropriate hard content. ANYTHING is hard if its 15 levels above you.

That's sort of what I'm getting at. If classes can level up solo or duo to max level THEN attempt the content it's not requiring a trinity to be present. If someone can slow and or root you don't need mez. FGs aren't mezzable and if that were the case in say MnM, they wouldn't be charmable either.

CC isn't just an enchanter thing, it's just they are considered the best at it, that makes me worried going forward as to how the content will shape up, if it's being decided on the fly from community feedback as a major factor.

Maw

Fell What's FW-difficulty ?

Fell

Transcendent If classes can level up solo or duo to max level THEN attempt the content it's not requiring a trinity to be present.

Eh? You can solo all the way up to max level -- you're still not doing the camps I named without that Trinity. Oh, I suppose a full team of necros might manage a few of them, but not all.

Transcendent FGs aren't mezzable and if that were the case in say MnM, they wouldn't be charmable either. CC isn't just an enchanter thing,...

Yes, but wee're talking about the old school definition of Trinity. There's no question that CC has been deprecated in MnM -- as I said earlier, there's only one zone in the entire game that requires it.

Maw Fell What's FW-difficulty ?

Are you asking what the zone is? (FW = Fallen Watch) or inquiring as to how hard exactly it is? It's VERY hard ... some of the mobs at the top require multiple groups, and even yard trash doubles for 300+, and, if not careful, come in pulls of 6-8.

If you look at the new MnM trailer video, you'll see my group in FW in a couple of shots ... I'm the derp with huge staff and the knee-length beard.

Maw

Fell I didn't played enough to see such difficulty and as i want to play enchanter it's good to know that CC are needed even at higher levels. Thank you !

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