Bard Deep Dive discussion

Xilith

Fortissimo -Thanks for the itemization pass with the rework! Not sure if Cinder Beetle Horn is still intended to be at 20%?

It will either lose it's status as a weapon, or the instrument bonus will be reduced, or it will no longer be an instrument most likely. That bonus is high for a combo weapon/instrument, especially at a low level, and it's on a 2H weapon. There's a bunch of stuff wrong with that item.

RogerDabbit

Gathbard What if we could set a 3/4 song melody, then insert "riffs" of other song ticks as we like? Ideally, you'd be able to insert two riffs without the buffs dropping, for a max of 5/6 active effects at a time.

It would give the player simple flexibility to insert riffs as needed, even delaying their core melody if the situation calls for it, but always returning to that base 3/4 song melody if no other songs are activated.

You'd get the automated regen songs as now, but it would require Bards to rhythmically activate other songs to squeeze more out of the class. Maybe I'm being too clever here, but: activating songs rhythmically to insert them into the melody seems to fit the class in a meta way. Could end up too finicky, though.

Dayn55

Xilith no, lol. I like many parts of the rework. I was not able to get my head around the mechanic enough to take advantage of it. I'm going to try going back in and twisting normally, then leverage this for downtime. I'm not sure I really understand yet how the measure system interacts works with detrimental buffs.

Zar

Xilith
No. Keep it Cha please.

Also, I mentioned above, can we get Whistling Slash to not cause a GCD (like shouts) for us twisters.

Waiden

I love the fact that mezzes with enchanters have been tweaked so that the longer spell always takes precedence. Can we also add something visually to illustrate to everyone who has what mezzed? For example, keep the animation very similar in look and color, but just add little pink notes floating around the head of the mezzed mob so everyone knows its a short duration bard mezz and not the enchanter mezz? It would be very helpful, and also very cool looking. Thank you.

BardMain

Xilith no i do not.i would of prob scaled it off str personally.. better itemization also hits on our melee dmg

hezky

have to agree with wishing i could turn off the measure system. it works very well for downtime but in active situations i find it more cumbersome to manage than it's worth and i end up playing the way i did before the rework because that's just easier for me.

what would make the measure system better for me is not having a beneficial song drop off if you are NOT at maximum measure capacity. if i have two beneficial songs running in measure (pre-30) then i would like them both to stay if i cast a detrimental song. that way, if i did have three songs running, i could simply cancel the song i least care about instead.

i would also like to see whistling slash off the gcd, it feels awkward that it is on the gcd and shouts are not.

lastly i think bards could do with some more consolidation of song buffs. it feels like for such an active playstyle with songs with such short durations, they could be a little more powerful or consolidated. for example i couldn't imagine combining beats of war and a primary or secondary haste would be too overpowered.

i really enjoy bard fantasy but as it currently stands i think i'd rather just play enchanter if i wanted a buff/debuff/cc-centric class

Krooguh

Purge should be a shout with a CD and 20m range. Not a spammable 3s cash 30m range.

Ophrikk

Krooguh I have to say this is the one real buff that might be OP form the rework. The whole measure system, ehh doesn't really change much, especially those of us who already did 4 song twists. I guess it's going to be a nice quality of life improvement once some of the kinks are worked out but spamming dispel every 3 sec on an inc target to fully debuff it or fully debuffing mezzed targets. Feels interesting from a PVE perspective. I don't play pvp, but I can see how that is probably game breaking.

Raybane

hezky Yes, the fact that a song is lost from the measure no matter how many you have as soon as you start to mix beneficial or detrimental songs feels terribly clunky and unfair. If all you have is runspeed going, then mezzing turns that off and then if you turn speed on again, then the mez is off.

At least it works when nothing is happening, but it's terrible as soon as you start doing anything.

Fidric

Ophrikk

Krooguh every purge is a time action economy cost against your 5/6 casting budget of buffs/cc and ends measure.

dispel/purge are the most interesting new additions the bard got and make for interesting timing decision making the class was lacking in an otherwise largely brain dead twist rotation.

i think fine as songs and they needed this flexibility.

if you bard is sitting there doing x5 purges over 15 seconds on one 18s mezzed (or running) target, that is all they are doing or contributing during that duration for the group. no other buffs, debuff or cc.

shared shouts are still a mess across the board.

the real pain is no access to sense magic considering of buff/debuff outside of 35 min self castable via measuring stick quest reward.

also the other way you deal with buffs on mobs is just breaking the camp and pulling before they can buff anyway ;p

Ophrikk

Fidric I agree our typical twist is braindead. Manasong, overhaste, basically mandatory, Optional Haste, Regen song, Snare/slowsong, tertiary, Dots ( i never use these). My point is that a spammable 3 sec purge is pretty class defining. If I end of maining a bard it will for sure be in the lineup as a key tool. OP may have been the wrong characterization, but I think like an 8 sec cooldown may end up being warranted. For now it will probably fly under the radar. I will definitely pull with it in combo with a dagger throw. Most mobs will get back to camp buffless if their single pulls.
Frankly if the buffs are significant on adds, I would forego everything but haste to strip off 4 or 5 buffs on a mezzed target. I'm guessing buried damage shields or something to that effect.

Narwhale

since there is not nearly enough time left in beta to fully experience the full scope of all of the bard changes, i don't think anyone is really qualified to give more than surface level feedback.

I do on the surface feel the changes are relatively good overall. just the fact we do have a stat with scaling is a huge improvement. Bard is a Support class and everything should be focused on that aspect is being S tier support and B-C tier at everything else.

Keep up the positive changes, the changes to Bard on the surface feel great. Measure system, Instrument Mods, Improved dot damage, and new abilities seem like great additions.

More feedback is needed I think after people are playing for 600+ hours on a class post rework and have gone through the most of the whole leveling experience and gearing experience. There may still yet be some pain points or areas that are not right or have been made too good or not strong enough.

Thanks for making the effort, Bards were in a dark place before the rework, and feel on the surface better.

Fidric

Ophrikk yeah the deep dive itself did not address where bard is meant to be the "premier" class at certain activites (well outside the zzz bloated resist options that should be combined to one)

e.g. speed obviously or if bard is the premier luller now as only multi target, or strong at purging over time but no greater purge etc

many other niche song choices need addressing/combining to be relevant in practical group use

e.g. combine (2nd?) cast haste and 2nd attack haste etc

e.g. beats and 1st haste

Krooguh

Fidric 25 years of max range mosquito bards juggling in and out to fully cleanse buffs is something I don't want to deal with again. It's no actions cause it's free actions.

Ophrikk

Fidric Yeah beats seems crappy as a standalone song. Frankly, beats and Overhaste should be combined into the haste song. I think there should be two manasongs available in the late 20's to mid 30's. One in combo with regen song and one in combo with 10% caster haste. Obviously they don't stack. Bard should always be about making the whole party a little bit better. I don't want personal DPS with dots. And toss a DS on the damage absorb song. With instruments, make most of the non manasongs (utility songs) anything but strings and percussion since those are the staples. Like haste and absorb both brass and maybe give mezz a cast reduction based on having a flute. 50% on store bought reduces cast by .5 sec, better ones by more. Make the bard have to make decisions that really matter.

Fidric

Ophrikk yeah beats is the most typical example of a boring song that replicates a boring longer term buff. (a broader issue with the hastes, hp + mana regen but they are more worth using, but still lacking any cool unique bard twist)

i really wanted the bard more meaningful damage offering to be applied to the group as a whole rather than just personal dots

e.g. a song that adds % or flat bonus magic damage add for all group's attack/spells as one proc per 6s refresh etc

along the lines of the delayed magic damage monk has on sun etc

the AC+barrier song is sadly very late and looks hard to justify equipping wind only for that in lieu of lute buff scaling

mez absolutely needs a boost from wind as either the % or flat scaling 6 second bonus e.g. 50% = 3s, 100% = 6s

i will never use: the multi resist songs, cast haste, beats, the 20% resist silence song. most of the shouts. feels like the dots will just be for solo kiting or as a pull, which i will generally avoid using much

Korenda

What an utter mess. You managed to turn a decent class into a mana battery just like they did in EQ. You seriously need to consider a opt out disable switch for this half baked Melody feature. You destroyed charm, mine as well remove the song. Charm has always been high risk high reward. Now I get a pet that hits like a standard players pet, then when charm goes down and I get hit as if by a semitruck, no thanks. The reward verses the risk is gone. No AOE dots, but wizard and druid get to quad kite, Really? At least make our dots AOE up to 4 mobs to bring it inline with mentioned classes. Fear song 6 seconds with a 60 second cooldown, while rangers get a fear that can cast every 1.5 seconds, really? Sorry if I offend you, I'm sure you put a lot of time into this, but I'm not going to sugarcoat it. This was a huge nerf the to bard. You managed to create an AFK bard mana battery. Please consider making changes to allow the love for the bard to flourish. 1999 main bard player here 20+ years, you almost managed to get it right, but then this... /sigh

Lutecris

Tofu Dot kiting sand giant brigands at level 57, bow damage had me down a little over 1/3 health by the time the mob was dead with both dots running, with just health regen running (no bandages). I can see myself only running the main dot, when in groups but even then it's a increase in dmg. I never managed to get Double Attack up high enough to get a decent indication, but from what I know of Double Attack from playing SB/Fighter, it should be an overall increase in DPS.

The hardest part about FW, if you don't have a FD class in the group, is that the mob packs are just that much bigger at times. Having to deal with 6–7 rats/undead, often with no room to move (lulls fail), can be difficult. Bards really shine when they have room to work with, being able to mez mobs while on the move. When mez breaks, 9/10 times the mobs go after the healer, when we'd much rather the mob beating on us. I can't think of a single time I'd want to use Repel on myself in a group situation. We don't do enough DPS to pull aggro. Changing Repel so that it can be used on other players would be a huge help in these situations and would give bards another ability that enchanters don't offer.

Unfortunately, I was way too busy with work to get a group test in after the rework to test Faedawyn's Piping of Protection, but I can see this song getting plenty of time on the hot bar while in FW. Paralyzing Shriek was also a much needed shout to help bards deal with CC juggling, though once again I didn't really get much of a chance to test it out.

bosui

So I managed to get close to level 40 before end of beta, and these are my final thoughts on the changes at this current point plus some stuff I wouldn't mind seeing in the future.

I spent the last few levels about half solo and half in a party, and the rework felt fine in both situations. In parties I would say I pulled a bit more than half of the time, just depended on what we had in the group and what we were fighting.

Solo was pretty simple, just run around and kite with the DoTs. This was a little slower, albeit faster than it was before the rework. I was mostly just using movement speed and both DoT songs, sometimes having to do hp regen if I got smacked by the mobs. I would usually have the damage shout on my bar for this but rarely used it since the range is just too short and risky. I would've liked having a 4th song that helps with solo, and I had considered the new AC/bubble song but with it being Wind it just didn't fit with solo where it's a little more stressful to be swapping instruments.

In parties I still kept a pretty standard core of songs, and in all cases I was the only source of haste and mana regen so that took up 3/4 of my main songs with the 4th being just hp regen until I needed to pull. Sometimes I would cycle in either an aoe slow or the DoTs if I wasn't needing to mez, and otherwise would pile in and melee with all the extra STR from whistling slash. I honestly didn't really pay attention to whether I had any significant falloff of song buffs, and I imagine that's something that'll get smoothed out with later updates.

Most of my feedback is in regard to group content, where I think bard is still a bit lacking. First off, there's still not really a lot of variety in group songs.
The new AC/bubble song is probably fine at higher levels but it starts off with much too low values that it's not worth using until basically max level, and even then I'm not sure. If it doesn't get a bonus to the bubble from CHA then it possibly should to be a consideration.
I think the combo hp/mana regen song also comes a bit too late in levels and might be better received in the late 30s or early 40s. Likewise, I still think bard should get more combined songs. Maybe combine the spell haste and secondary haste songs somewhere in the late 20s, and give an upgrade to it at higher level. Same thing with the Beats of Battle/War line, maybe let Battle scale to 42 and then combine War with the primary haste at that point.
It's not really clear at this point how useful the resistance songs will be, but I had no reason to use them. If they maybe had a small AC component or something, and maybe an upgrade with a damage shield or something would give more incentive to use them.

I would really love to see more songs that made use of the instrument modifier, because right now Crescendo feels fairly lackluster in group play. If there's a component to mez/charm/lull to ignore a certain amount of the target's magic resistance, perhaps the instrument mod could further that effect and would incentivize using instruments for them. If I've missed something and that's already the case it would be nice to see in the tooltips what values are modified or not. Currently it feels like you really just equip a lute full-time in party for the mana regen and that's it, sometimes swapping to a drum. If each instrument had a clear "role" that could go a long way with reducing instrument swapping during a party but still making each type relevant. Or possibly having certain songs get modified by multiple instrument types would open up better variety in instrument use.

With that all said, I'm enjoying the rework quite a bit and I understand things are still going to change through EA and beyond. I'm excited to see how things evolve over the coming months/years for the class and I'll continue to provide (hopefully useful) feedback!

TL;DR would love to see more combined songs to give more variety in song selection, and more songs modified by instruments with possibility of songs being modified by multiple instrument types

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