Enchanter Deep Dive discussion

Fell

Spellweaver ... a current WoW-ified game. Where everyone pushes out the same damage numbers, just disguised by a dagger or a fireball...

...and everyone gets CC including a tank with the bread and butter 1min mez and aoe stun.

And that's really why the charm nerf destroys the class entirely. Not because enchanters NEED to be a DPS class -- but because there's no need for a CC class when everyone can CC. And have you seen the monk changes? FD splitting used to be slow and fiddly ... now they can extract singles from a 6-mob pack lightning fast, and in perfect safety.

Spellweaver

Inquisitor is the new Enchanter. Stack Int plate gear, throw out 1min mezzes and aoe stuns, drain casters, purge and off tank and keep that haste aura rolling, stackable with Shaman's. 30s mana transfer cooldown, along with Shaman haste stacking, makes Inquisitor as main CC even more appealing. Especially after camps are broken for sustained melee DPS...with no risk. Camp out and log your Enchanter for mana regen.

Deezler

The changes suck, plain and simple. The soft casuals will continue to justify it by comparing it to other "DPS classes" and how they should be top of the food chain blah blah. Fact is most people outside of a static group are just normal dudes who are chillin and not trying to min/max their way to server first glory. Those same types who pick enchanter as their main, aren't charming and are perfectly happy being mana battery buff-bots who take frequent afks and couldn't care less about how quickly the xp bar is moving - similar to the bards who don't want to pull??? A change was made VERY deep into the progression of the game where gear was practically free and stacking CHA to the point of making charm 'reliable' was incredibly easy to do. Well guess what, your lvl 12 enchanter in EA isn't going to have 150+ cha like it does now. And those of you who leveled up charming red cons with no gear, that ISNT how the game was recently. Charm was NOT reliable for me. It was FUN to gamble with, and definitely a RISK to do in tattered cloth gear without enchants and max JC gear... so congrats on 'sticking' it to the few overperforming PEOPLE who happened to play the class at 150% 24/7 - but that did not mean the CLASS was that far overperforming... Tune it down if it helps you sleep at night, but this was GUTTING the skill, not just nerfing it. And if THATs the intent moving forward, overcorrections at every turn based on a noisy minority - then that's not a good look long-term.

Ophrikk

Deezler Stop pretending it's hard to handle charm breaks, ok so people will be in rags with 30 charisma will last a min or two, it still doesn't break in 20 sec. I levelled a chanter in rags on the beta server to 18, my charm's lasted three to five min on average, yes sometimes it was a 10 sec after cast break but those were rare. After break it's AE stun recharm boom back in business. The great thing about what they've done here is put everyone on notice that chanters will be the kings of CC, but their DPS will be mediocre. Roll what you want in 10 days. Alot of the people that are mad have high level enchanters and they know their CC is really important in the late game when mobs really start to hit super hard, they want to be in good groups and they know a good group has a good chanter. They don't want to risk having no enchanter or even worse an idiot playing their group's chanter. But they also know there are lulls in the action and not as much CC is necessary to keep their attention so they pretend that controlling a hard-hitting charmed mob takes extreme skill so they should be rewarded with insane DPS because after all they're the brain surgeons of the MnM community. Yeah, no one's buying it. Pick your poison, you want DPS, take spellblade, archer, wizard or beastlord. You no longer get to be top CC and DPS.
Here's my idea every account with a 60 enchanter should only be allowed to roll ranger for the first 30 days =). Have fun.

Fake

Fell You just want the enchanter nerfed back to the junkyard, its crazy- first it was charm, now you want mezz to be nerfed. It's almost like you want enchanters to be so trash that only you will play it and finally have a class you can call your own.

Jace

Chiming in on this but I don't know how this wasn't thought of the second M&M game was conceived and the first time Enchanter class was discussed. Charm was always high risk high reward it's one of the first questions that should have been answered in class design. My two cents I wouldn't go into a game hoping for a class to be fixed later that strategy never works out. If you were hoping to play the charm/recharm on break charisma high risk high reward game I'd let it go and pick another class or just accept being a buff bot 90% of the time.

Gathbard

Jace If you were hoping to play the charm/recharm on break charisma high risk high reward game I'd let it go and pick another class or just accept being a buff bot 90% of the time.

I wasn't. I was planning to play Bard (which in my mind should have fluff charm at best), Cleric and Beastmaster (potentially Elementalist too) but my reaction is more in line of "this could happen to any class" so I'm not gonna play any. Most importantly, I want to relive the "classic mmorpg experience" and this ain't it, nor did they show any sign of truly understanding what it was.
It's a pale imitation at best, and a very incomplete and biased interpretation at that.

I'm simply not gonna pay 15$ a month for a game that:

is still missing tons of races and basic elements, that shifts the ENTIRE CORE CONCEPTS of its classes with a bazooka at a moment's notice (Enchanter first, Shadow Knight turning Monster Hunter is the next one, who knows what will happen next) after they had YEARS to nail them down, extreme lack of communication AND communicating skills. with patch notes that constantly leave out big changes, no coherence within the design philosophy, inexplicable developing priorities, favoritisms between classes with devpet ones. and the list could go on.

I respect the indie approach, the "voluntary" work, the passion behind it, and I do wish them the best of luck, but so far they didn't show me a single reason why the delivered product is worth the asked price, and coming October 1st I'm out of here.
It took a lot of work to put me off a new sub mmorpg with no microtransactions, but boy they really did their best to squash that advantage.
I'll play something else that IS the true classic experience, pros and cons, and it's free. There are many alternatives and it's not hard to find something you never played before, or at least played very little.

Fell

Jace If you were hoping to play the charm/recharm on break charisma high risk high reward game I'd let it go and pick another class

I can live with that class, but my real preference is the classic EQ crowd-control enchanter. But MnM built a game where CC is barely needed at all, then gave CC tools to most every other class in the game, including monks who can break a crowded camp far easier and safer than the "crowd control" class, and even a tank with the exact same Mez spell and AoE stun (!) as enchanters ....

Fake ou just want the enchanter nerfed back to the junkyard, its crazy- first it was charm, now you want mezz to be nerfed.

Unsure who's posts you're reading, but they're not mine. Perhaps English is not your native language?

Grubbyfeet

Some people just can't stop calling for nerfs for every class

Raybane

Gathbard This was the least unexpected class change so far as it's been made quite clear that they didn't like how strong charm were and it was going to be changed. I can understand being unhappy with how it turned out, but it wasn't coming out of nowhere or "could happen to any class" suddenly.

Gathbard

Raybane I'm not mad at the fact that Charm was changed, it needed a nerf and that was totally expected. I'm annoyed by the fact that it was done with a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel, that it was done poorly and in a way that completely changed how the class is played.
They changed a class that for a long time had a heavy Charm focus (and Charm was broken AF, sure, but that's a different issue) to a class that now has no reason to use Charm because it's not worth it. That's a huge change of vision, it's not a tweak.
This without ever saying "it is not our intention for Enchanters to focus on Charm", at best they were told that Charm didn't work as intended and that it would be fixed (which was blatantly obvious anyway).
If I was an Enchanter main, playing the class just for the "controller" fantasy, I would be "oh well, it was free anyway" and I would probably stop playing because this game doesn't have a class for me anymore.
But if I was paying, I would be mighty pissed. I prefer to spare myself that frustration.

And in general, I'm annoyed by the way they left classes descriptions as they were for so long then changed the IDEA of the classes with their Deep Dives instead of sticking to the original vision and tweaking it.
They started well with Druid, expanding on that vision but without revolutionizing it completely, then they went overboard with the others.

One thing is to say "these are the classes and we'll tweak them later", another one is saying "this class is this and this is the vision" for years then go in with a Deep Dive and change that vision (Shadow Knight becomes more of a Monster Hunter, losing the necro base, Beastmaster is not a shaman hybrid but a Barbarian with a pet, and so on).
That's what I'm talking about when I mention unexpected changes, and that it could happen to any class.

I don't want to login one day and find out that someone woke up with a new vision of my class and suddenly I'm stuck playing something entirely different at its core. That might be fine in beta, but not when I'm paying (and the Deep Dives are not done yet).

Fell

Raybane This was the least unexpected class change so far as it's been made quite clear that they didn't like how strong charm were

Most expected some sort of damage nerf to charm. I myself advocated for a 30-50% reduction -- and got slammed by other enchanters for being "too extreme". Instead, the devs cut damage to ONE FIFTH what it was before, even below what our weak summon pet does. Then tried to band-aid that absurd mess by stealth-nerfing the summon pet too.

We expected group buffs from the deep dive too. We didn't expect to have to pay 6 silver every 35 minutes to use them. And we certainly didn't expect a (small, but significant) nerf to our CC abilities, especially when they've added CC tools to half the other classes in the game, making a "dedicated CC" class a nonentity.

Razzle

Yeah this deep dive has been big let down all and all.

I've already complained about charm in this thread. I was advocating (just like Fell it seems) for a 30%-50% flat reduction. I even wanted something that addressed how easily pets could replace the need for tanks in most groups. (Maybe decreasing threat generated or increased damage taken etc etc)

Instead we get this uninteresting and homogenized change that makes the class so much less interesting to play. (And so much less unique with CC abilities added to almost every other class). Enchanter is the only class I really play and I think my /played is getting close to 2000h in the year or so I've had access to this game. It was the only class with high enough APM, skill expression and risk / reward to keep me interested. And now, instead of focusing on its strengths and adding complexity... It just so feels less interesting and dulled down. (Just reading the spell book like Neb already pointed out is depressing. What happened to the unique spell names?)

If you really had too little time to spend on this deep dive, was it really necessary to push out the door this close to EA this unfinished? (Charm changes included).

Razzle

What happened to the new interesting interactions, buffs and duration increases for our illusions?
The ability to share illusions with others?
New interactions and added features for Enchant Ally? (Being able to use enchant ally while maintaining charm was incredibly fun even though I know it was unintended. I would love for us to have more of those sort of tools in the future).

Also...
I've always disliked the enchanters summoned pet and I personally (I know most people don't agree with me) would want it removed completely. The only true reason for it is to farm lower level mobs when an higher level charm candidate isn't available.
So how about the higher level charm spell you use, the higher the minimum level of the charmed target becomes? Just like how you control the top end of damage this would also control and bring up the lower end. I'm not looking to create a valid high level pet, (even though the idea would be interesting). I just want something that would allow me to farm lower level mobs easily instead of having a summoned pet. (Also I though the aim was to remove pets from non pet classes?).

The argument for charming higher level targets now has already been made and I've made that argument before on Discord. (Probably buried in the multitude of "nerf charm" thread that got locked).

You've already showed us that you can control the damage output of the charmed pet, so how about you allow us to charm higher level targets now? It would give us a lot more options and flexibility, especially in higher level areas where we'd otherwise had to drag our charmed pets across the zones to get them to where we want to be. (It would also get rid of the second reason why I'd need to summon my pet because most things wouldn't be too high level to charm).

Spellweaver

Nick, one of the M&M founders, said this right before Beta.

"Any class with Charm can be S-tier DPS at certain points and carrying certain risk. But overall, those classes, if they’re not utilizing Charm they aren’t S-tier, right? Charm is a risk versus reward thing and in the right situations, yes, it makes them an S-tier DPS."

Dented

I was excited to actually play an Enchanter, but looks like it will be boxed sitting there for buffs/occasional CC.

Fell

Dented I was excited to actually play an Enchanter, but looks like it will be boxed sitting there for buffs/occasional CC.

What you'll see even on the no-box server is people telling their party that, "I have an enchanter friend camped here (wink wink) who'll log in whenever we need buffs. "

Dented

Fell

Yeah I don't blame them either really. It brings very little consistent value to a group now, so just put it in the corner and ignore it most the time. Playing one as your sole character is not even 'sandwich gameplay' now. Its closer to 'making dinner' gameplay.

Transcendent

Grubbyfeet Yep! This is why the devs should have a clear vision. I hope the next pass renews everyone's confidence, because it was rocked. People need to stop trying to develop the game and let the devs figure it out. The classes appear to have been in a much better state without the sweeping changes people have whined for.

Tacky

OK Enchanters as a whole. I have EQ Patheon and now this game that had a chanter class. Bottom line it seems like the Idea of what a chanter should have seems hard to do. I was Wrong I guess EQ had a Beta, but it took them a year or more after launch I think to nerf Charm. Then they made it, so chanters not needed why?
Patheon turned into a joke so hate to use it for an example. When mobs were pulled usually more than two came in. Often 1 one mob sometimes more than one you could not mess. This was a bad design. I quit and then came back some told to check the chanters spells and there was a new spell about every 4 lv's that was a pe. I am thinking a chanter pet it won't be much. To my surprise it had a lot of HP and could tank very very good. Chanter in EQ and in Patheon had some DPS spells they just drew a lot of agro so not recommended in a group. This pet helped in groups to take care of the mob that could not be mesed.
I started a chanter two days before the nerf. I knew there was going to be a big nerf to charm hear to many online complain about it. I looked and from what I saw the chanter was not the highest played class was kind of far down the list.
When I saw they remove enchant Ally, and mem blur I was disappointed they wanted to take away or DPS but also to away so of or good spells that were not DPS.
Still thinking chanter on EA maybe something else maybe mele for a alt

« Previous Page Next Page »