Apparently, I'm really bad at this.

tukor

I will quote myself: "But the fundamental problem for me is that I don’t feel more powerful as I level up, if the same mobs that were hard 20 levels ago are still hard now".

Of the recent comments, only "mesh" has actually addressed what I’m talking about. The rest is off-topic.

Mesh says it’s like this on purpose—because that’s how the devs want it.

Honestly, I don't get it.
It doesn't matter if you're a Druid or whatever (though other classes have it much easier).
Making it hard to beat mobs that are many levels below you—just for the sake of it—doesn't make sense to me.
And, again, it doesn't give me the feeling that I'm progressing, improving, or getting stronger as I level up.

But... hey! If that's what the devs want...

Mesh

tukor
Tuning is an iterative process. Balance will be up and down for a while until NWC gets things dialed in the way they want it. I expect to see more tweaks to charm, spell damage, pets, etc. throughout EA.

I just meant that, as a general rule, you should expect M&M to be pretty challenging to solo. Outleveling content will make things easier but not so easy that you're able to just face tank a pack of undead as a lightly armored Druid. That wouldn't make any sense.

tukor

First of all, I really appreciate your input. Secondly, I have a question: Why not? Why wouldn't it make sense?

Of course, it wouldn't make sense if they were at my level... or lower but still close.
Or if we were talking about level 40+ enemies.

But... low-level trash mobs—levels 10–15—which are among the least dangerous things in the game?
Why shouldn't I be able to enjoy the fruits of my labor (all those hours at the computer), at least for that?
Those mobs won't give me anything... just some bones, a strip of cloth... but at least I'd feel like the effort of leveling up was worth it (even just a little).

Mesh

tukor
I can only guess at what the devs are thinking but I imagine it has to do with the style of the game.

In some other MMO's you can literally AFK for an hour while a dozen lower level mobs swing on you and never die. That sort of thing seems much more immersion breaking to me. We don't want to see high level players pulling half the dungeon so their lowbie friends can kill them one at a time, etc. This type of thing doesn't belong in M&M.

You do become comparatively stronger as you level. Just not so much stronger that it completely trivializes the content.

As I mentioned before, it also has something to do with your class. Druids are a lightly armored healer/caster that are supposed to avoid damage rather than tank it. You can get away with pulling a few very low level mobs and face tanking them as a class like Shadow Knight or Paladin with much higher defense. Even those classes will have their limits though.

tukor

Okay, I get what you're saying, and it makes sense.
Although, personally... I don't like it at all.

I don't know, sometimes I get the feeling that devs lately are too focused on creating something specific... and they forget that it also has to be fun.

Zaroua

Dredlord Even with top-tier gear, good luck getting a healing invite to Fallen Watch. They feel fine for the first 20 to 30 levels, but after that, you just become a glorified port mule for the exact same people who complained they were overpowered.

That's part of the reason why I'd like to see Root removed from Paladins, Clerics, Shamans. Let a portion of the Druid's strength come from its ability to help CC.

Dredlord They are forcing a heavy group focus onto the game.

Yeah that's what the game is all about. That's why I'm here; I don't want a solo game where there's other people around. I want a grouping/social game.

tukor My point is that surviving against mobs that are a much (and I mean much) lower level shouldn't be so hard.
I’m not even saying I need to kill them quickly, but having 2 or 3 of them drain my health before I can finish them off... well...

Seems like you're trying to melee mobs down as a Druid. Druid is not a melee class. Root and DoT is how you get things done. It's not fast, but it works. And that's more than what some classes can say.

Fell

tukor

Mesh says it’s like this on purpose—because that’s how the devs want it.
Honestly, I don't get it.

It is on purpose, and I think it's a good system. First, there's the realism aspect: a human can step on an ant -- but fall into a large antpile, and they can eat you alive. You gain power as you become more experienced, but that doesn't make you wholly invulnerable to a large number of "easy" mobs.

But there's a gameplay issue as well. Allowing high level toons to solo mow down enormous swathes of mobs encourages them to consume content below them. Yes that content is green and thus doesn't give exp (unless they're "high green") -- but the mobs still drop coin and items -- sometimes very nice items. If a level 60 can decimate hundreds of level 35-40 mobs per hour, they can earn several plat an evening in coin alone -- and deny all that content to level 35 players as well.

tukor

Fell yeah.... As i said... "sometimes I get the feeling that devs lately are too focused on creating something specific... and they forget that it also has to be fun."

tukor

Zaroua No. Read again, i said you have to go oom to kill 3 skelys 20 lvls under you. Or kill them with the weapon if u go oom (and takes forever).
I know that druid is not a DPS class. I never said I didn't know it. I'm not new to the game.

Mesh

tukor
It is fun, just in a different way.

The overall design philosophy in M&M is meant to promote community.

The more content people can solo easily, the less need there is to interact with each other and cooperate.

tukor

Just as I said earlier that certain things made sense... now I have to say that what you're saying now doesn't make sense to me.

I don't see the connection between encouraging grouping and having to... what? Find a group just so you can walk around a low-level zone? And who’s going to go with you?
It makes no sense.

That isn't "solo content."
It’s not even content anymore. It’s just trash mobs you outleveled ages ago. It makes zero sense.

I can understand your point about the devs' motivations. But... that's fun? ROFL... sorry, with all due respect... but no.

Velthorian

druids solo power comes from Charm and versatility. They are never going to be good at chewing though packs of greens/greys. that is a game for pet classes. (endless, mana free damage, with no effort)

Fell

@tukor

I don't [see] having to... what? Find a group just so you can walk around a low-level
zone? And who’s going to go with you?

You weren't in just any low-level zone. You were in a dungeon. Dungeons are by design intended for groups. Worse, you picked a class that excels in outdoor zones -- and so is similarly gimped indoors -- to go there. Plenty of other classes can solo in undead dungeons, even when the mobs are dark blue, much less green. But not druids. A necro or SK, for instance, would have easily ran around all over down there.

With all due respect, it seems you're upset because you can't do anything and everything in the game solo. Druids have great strengths. But -- as is required for good class design -- they have weaknesses as well.

Mesh

tukor
Mobs being tough to kill and mana being limited are both points of friction intended to push players towards grouping.

Whether or not you enjoy that aspect of the game is a matter of preference but that's the game NWC are making.

tukor

Fell saying that "it seems you're upset because you can't do anything and everything in the game solo"
That makes no sense, and it’s a very low blow to say that, especially when it has nothing to do with what I actually said...
And besides, I’ve said it several times.
Autoquote: "Or green mobs in some areas of "The Deep" that absolutely thrash me. And this happens to me in many other zones, too".
But it seems like the only thing being talked about is the part where I mentioned a dungeon.

Autoquote: "It's not that I'm complaining about the Druid. I love having tons of buffs and utility, and if that means struggling a bit with mobs while soloing, then fine."
This is in my very first post.

And there,s more in some more posts.

NO Sir, i am not upset, but I would like it if, when I take the time to explain something, people at least had a minimum level of reading comprehension. No offense intended. :

tukor

Mesh Yep Mesh, I do agree with you on that. I don't like it (I don't like it at all), but what you're saying is just "the way it is." "It is what it is."

This game ought to be about discovery, exploration, wonder, and being amazed, too.

I love exploring and trying things out; lately, all I want to do is camp out.

It seems the only thing that matters is preventing us from having fun mechanics (because they’re too powerful), forcing us to group up for everything, and stopping us from doing anything solo just because "well, your class does this or that"....

But anyway, yeah—as you say, "it is what it is."

And ultimately, it’s up to each person to decide whether they like it enough to play it or not.

Fell

tukor

But it seems like the only thing being talked about is the part where I mentioned a dungeon.

I focused on that because others had already addressed your experience in The Deep. If you're struggling to solo one green mob that players "15 levels lower than me are tearing through with ease", then you're doing something wrong. I assume you're trying to melee the mobs -- and you're not a melee class. At level 60, if I try to melee a mob even 30 levels below me, I'm going to lose, and lose badly.

It seems the only thing that matters is preventing us from having fun ... forcing us to group up for
everything, and stopping us from doing anything solo ...

Now you're engaging in histrionic hyperbole. There are many thousands of hours of content a druid can do solo, including leveling off mobs much higher than greens. You can't do everything solo, though.

Growlron

riverbender Thats doesnt apply to this game.

They are completely independent and self funded. The game will run regardless of player count.

marathon has MASSIVE investment and overhead, they needed to pull large numbers to be successful.

tukor

Fell Why assume I’ve done something wrong? I’ve been playing this game for quite a while...

It’s as simple as taking a druid and heading down there (or to other areas).

And I’m not talking about the giant that appeared dark blue to me—the one I had zero chance against... I get that... it’s a giant after all!!!! 😃

I mean a fight against a simple light-green goblin like 15-20 levels under me.

I mean, i already had a high lvl druid in alpha, this one is like lvl 33, i have several chars ranging from lvl 10 to 45.
Are you seriously telling me I'm probably doing something wrong?
I'm not saying I'm the best player, but... surely I know how the game works...?
At least to know what it's like to hit in melee or not?
Please, don't be condescending. (I don't want to be either, nor do I want it to seem like I'm angry; my English isn't very good.)

Growlron

Zaroua Yeah that's what the game is all about. That's why I'm here; I don't want a solo game where there's other people around. I want a grouping/social game.

How'd that work out for Pantheon? And no one is saying build a solo game. We are asking the game to adequately accommodate a LARGE portion of the player base with reasonable options for soloing.

This is not some tiny subset of players like PVPers.

More then half of the player base wants to be able to solo. Not exclusively. Not the entire game. Not raids. But we want to be able to play the game on our own when we dont feel like being social or when our group mates or guild mates are not available to help us with content.

Consider the future. Once most players are high level and going through horizontal content. And someone wants to make a new character. .. I guess they just cant. How do you level an alt without talking your friends into doing it with you? What if the class just doesnt work for them and they want to pivot? What if the class doesnt fit well into the groups that they play with? And they need to reroll and try to catch up.. So now the ENTIRE group has to reroll?

Solo play is essential to this type of game.

And solo players can be VERY social without ever grouping.

I would prefer to solo 100% of the time. But I love to do tradeskills. My social comes from helping randoms as I am running around. Buff people in town or newb yard. Engaging with other tradeskillers to perfect our art. Selling goods and providing materials to adventurers.

Forcing people into a group play style is not the way to build a healthy social game. Its a way to just tank your population numbers, which in turn ruins the possibility of having social interaction. As society requires people to function.

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