Devs: Learn the math of charm damage

Raybane

Fell Druids do have DPS as a side role, unlike Enchanters.

Fell

The problem is that the druid's MAIN role is healing: every group needs healing every fight, and only heal classes can fill that.

Compare that to enchanters: their main role is now CC -- but most of the fights don't need CC, and even when they do, we have priests, DPSers, and even tanks with strong CC tools.

Transcendent

Clueless It would need to be significant damage and tapping. Like if it takes 5 or 6 seconds for a nuke spell to refresh, it would tap the entire time at least. Combining this principle with other effects to create a more offensive sense to debuffing or supporting.

As opposed to casting slow and nothing else. As opposed to mez parking a mob and nothing else.

Hell, they could bring back enchant ally and make your buffs as an ENC boosted on that one party member and/or letting the enchanters nukes do more damage while a partner is enchanted. Like a pseudo charm / buff. Something.

Nefarious

Transcendent I've been playing video games since video games were invented, and I have never understood the nerf bat philosophy. Nerfing powerful builds until everything is equally mediocre is a really good way to make your game mediocre as well.

If Enchanter pets were doing 2-3x damage of a DPS class, it sounds to me like other DPS classes are underperforming. Perhaps a better approach would have been to slightly reduce charm pet DPS while also increasing damage of pure DPS classes. This obsession with insanely long TTK does not make the game any more exciting, enjoyable or fun.

klok

Put a dot on our main nuke, move the stat and mana regen reduction elsewhere

Implement spawn logic to push more CC or pulling tactics: change so that camps, or mobs who spawn in social distance of eachother, will respawn together if they are due to repop in X minutes, using the average duration of their repop timers. Camps will then pop together always unless u kill mobs over X minutes apart. Could make it so that only 4 mobs could pop together so u could still split an 8-pack in two 4-pulls even if you killed all at nearly the same time.

Give membur back or multitarget paci: we have low CD FD in the game which resets all threat when u just LoS, why cant we have multitarget pacify? Also losing memblur as the class that controls other targets minds is totally lame.

Rework charm - reverse swarm charm is worse for the game than charm being good dmg, so idk why the group version got nerfed but not soloing, just gonna push people to swarm charm in EA which is the real cancer to the game. DOing 1 dmg to a mob to secure full exp is LAME. Track the last 100% of mobs HP in dmg, and poof the mob if NPCs did more than 50%, or weight the exp down based on how much dmg players/pets did. If NPCs did 50% and players/pets did 50%, the mob is only awarding 50% exp..

Charm needs a minimum duration and to scale with CHA differently. the avg duration (and dmg:mana eff) is raising 20x but it should only 3x or 5x from getting better gear.

Charm sucks in a group: Would anyone ever buff their animation with 25% more dmg if the cost was hundreds of mana per minute, getting hit randomly, not able to take breaks, have to constantly and randomly reapply the buff, costs the healer more mana?? The answer is obviously no, so it obviously needs more work.

Raybane

Nefarious If one class does more then 2-3x times the damage it should, then it doesn't make sense to buff everyone else to match that just to spare the feelings of the players of that class.

rabbi

I'm extremely happy with the charm nerf as it sounds like the scourge that is perma charm is gone finally. Now that this is in place, the enchanter class will finally have room to breathe and the devs can flesh out CC throughout EA to let enchanters shine doing what they were always intended to do (instead of being meat proxies for an overpowered charmed pet). Bless you, devs 🙏 🙏 🙏

Fell

Raybane If one class does more then 2-3x times the damage it should, then it doesn't make sense to buff everyone else t

Right. You scale down that damage to something reasonable. You don't break it entirely, to the point that using charm actually -reduces- your total damage.

Having a CC-only class is a great idea -- but not when CC needs are minimal, and actual dps / priest / tank classes can CC as well.

kridak

now just bring a monk they will split camps easier than an enchanter could and voila no cc required and if cc is required there are tons of classes with viable cc...the devs better figure out what ench is supposed to be because cc aint it, dps aint it, maybe buffer is it.

They really want ench to be cc...start removing all the cc from other classes...treat it like healing...only a couple classes actually can heal...right now cc is nothing liking healing...everyone and their mother can cc in some form.

Transcendent

kridak I wouldn't expect them to remove the cc from multiple other classes if they're doing passes class by class. At this point it seems like an ideological issue about what CC means to the game proper and not just about whether or not Enchanters should have an edge in it.

Maybe requiring camps to really push for an enchanter in group is a bridge too far and too limiting in scope in their opinion. But if the don't replace it with something then we'll see that reflected in the population. Everyone will just safely skip the class.

Right now I'm exploring maining another class, after having excitement about it at the beginning of alpha.

Clueless

Fell At no point in time would using Charm (especially via reverse Charming) reduce your damage output. It is less now than what it previously was, sure... but that does not mean that the damage being dealt TO your Charm pet is reduced. That damage is still a net output from the Enchanter via the process of reverse Charming, and that damage can also be used in groups to still functionally perform CC and increase your kill speed, at all levels, in virtually all places.

Reducing Charm dps does not make Enchanters "unplayable" by any means... it just makes them unable to solo farm named mobs at level, or use Charm as effectively as previously in group settings (less Charm dps = less Charm threat generation = less capability to use Charm pet as a tank and/or a form of multiple mob CC). Remember, reverse Charming is still possible - the mob you Charm has reduced dps, but the mob beating on your Charm pet does not. This change only slightly reduces the Enchanter's capability to solo via reverse Charming. It is actually beneficial now to Haste the mob you do not Charm, because it will kill your Charm pet faster.

This also plays into how well the team genuinely nailed the risk/reward factor for once - min-maxers WILL be Hasting the mobs they are killing (NOT SLOWING THEM), adding to the risk factor of the whole process, whether doing a reverse Charm function in a group setting, or especially doing it as a solo player.

This is something I don't think the devs even really thought of - Charm dps is not only the damage the Charm pet itself outputs... it is also the damage the Charm pet receives.

Fell

Clueless At no point in time would using Charm (especially via reverse Charming) reduce your damage output .. Damage is still a net output from the Enchanter via the process of reverse Charming ... min-maxers WILL be Hasting the mobs they are killing (NOT SLOWING THEM)

You didn't read the initial post if you believe this doesn't reduce group damage. And if you're outdoors in a group with plenty of room and facing easy content, you can reverse charm and haste your opponents. In tight dungeon quarters against harder content, you're not going to see groups doing that, except perhaps a multi-charmer tankless group. And even then, anyone who thinks you can cast a mana-intensive buff like haste on every mob you kill in a group hasn't done the math.

Clueless . it just makes enchanters unable to solo farm named mobs at level

At level? Without charm, and with the loss of enchant ally and the stealth nerf to the summon pet, enchanters aren't farming even light blue named. I'd have to test, but possibly not even a high green.

But again, the enchanters shouldn't be judged by their farming capacity, but by what devs claim is their primary role: CC/support. And for that role to be effective, CC needs to matter in the game.

GoblinDruid

Fell

But wait! It gets worse. If you give up charm entirely, you no longer need charisma.

Can someone confirm that this is true? I just created my Enchanter and am now questioning whether or not I should have placed all of my points into intelligence instead 🙁 I kind of doubt that they would let Charisma become a useless stat long-term though. Like there's so many Charisma items and stuff that would no longer serve any real purpose?

I was honestly thinking about this with Inquisitor too, like why do they get +1 Charisma if they don't really Charm stuff? I had assumed Charisma must affect mez resists / breaks or something?

Fell

GoblinDruid Can someone confirm that this is true? I just created my Enchanter and am now questioning whether or not I should have placed all of my points into intelligence instead

Charisma isn't "useless". It still affects lull and (if you charm) charm. CHA does NOT affect mez resist rate. At least one dev claimed it's affecting mez duration, but I've repeatedly tested that and seen no evidence of it whatsover.

CHA also adds damage, but it does so on a much LOWER scale than does INT. For example, I swapped gear to lower my INT by -37 but raise my CHA by +39. On the same scale, I should have seen the same or slightly higher dmg, but instead I saw this:

Anguish: 839 dmg dropped to 740
Mindshackle: 134/tick dropped to 119/tick. (w/o the 50% torment bonus in both cases).

And INT, of course also adds mana regen -- 100 INT = +10/tick mana.

I would bet though that this sees future adjustment, so I wouldn't reroll because of it.

Clueless

Fell You didn't read the initial post if you believe this doesn't reduce group damage.

I play the class and can tell you right now that if you think that your damage is in a reduced state when compared to using your Shadowkin, that you are 100% not taking into account the fact that the damage your Charm pet takes is still damage being net produced by Charm. If you cannot understand that, I cannot help you. Even if the Charm pet damage was reduced to 1/5 of what it previously was, as you claim (which it wasn't), you would still be at 120% of that monster's damage output as damage being caused directly by Charm... and that is not considering the fact that you can have your Charm pet tank 2+ mobs at a time. For each mob your Charm pet is tanking, the net damage output of Charm is literally increasing by 100%.

Fell In tight dungeon quarters against harder content, you're not going to see groups doing that, except perhaps a multi-charmer tankless group

I feel like this is just your anecdotal experience forming a bias towards your playstyle, because again, I play the class and even in FW have put Charm to use rather well. Especially if you don't care about EXP, you can just let your Charm pets get eaten on repeat while using Root as a way to keep aggro on your Charm pets as you cycle through them. Skill issue, dare I say?

Fell At level? Without charm, and with the loss of enchant ally and the stealth nerf to the summon pet, enchanters aren't farming even light blue named. I'd have to test, but possibly not even a high green.

So... They're still better than most other classes, and on par with other pet/Charm classes finally? What's the problem here, exactly?

Fell CC/support ... CC needs to matter in the game.

If you don't think CC matters, you probably haven't done well in FW ever. CC matters a lot... You probably mean to say that CC should be more of a unique skillset, as in the Enchanter should be the only class performing that function... to which I would agree. There is far too much overlap between many different classes, and not just with respect to CC capability. Less overlap and less CC in general will result in more unique classes and more of a reason to take any given class into your group composition.

Fell

Clueless if you think that your damage is in a reduced state when compared to using your Shadowkin, that you are 100% not taking into account the fact that the damage your Charm pet takes is still damage being net produced by Charm.

You're not getting it. Reverse charming works when soloing. Even before the patch, it only worked in groups when (a) you had some room to work, and (b) you had a group willing and competent enough to handle it. But now, your charm pet will not hold aggro. Even separated out onto a separate mob from the main fight, the first heal is going to peel aggro ... and with an 80% dmg nerf, solid aggro lock is going to take 30-45 seconds. With that debuff, the charm pet dies when the mob's still at 80% health, which means you have to swap pets multiple times per mob -- which means casting a highly intensive charm spell multiple times per mob. In a group with any reasonable temp, you're OOM fast.

Clueless I play the class and even in FW have put Charm to use rather well. Especially if you don't care about EXP

Sure. If you don't care about xp, that works great. I've done it myself many times there. You don't need to perform the swap in tight quarters, nor do you have to recharm multiple times each pull. But you're de facto agreeing that charm doesn't work in EXP groups.

Clueless If you don't think CC matters, you probably haven't done well in FW ever.

Odd. My static was the first to single-group most every camp in FW ... all those that can be. We're even featured several times in the FW scenes in NWC's new official trailer -- I'm the guy with the long beard and the huge staff.

It helps if you read posts before replying to them. Here and the other charm thread, I have loudly and repeatedly excluded Fallen Watch from the "CC doesn't matter" mantra.

Clueless

Fell Even before the patch, it only worked in groups when (a) you had some room to work, and (b) you had a group willing and competent enough to handle it.

(a) literally never was an issue for me, and (b) kind of exemplifies the skill curve allowed for a high risk/high reward kit of any design - those who are actually good at the game will put the kit to use better than those who are not, and as such will get better results while dealing with the added risk. This is fine, from a design perspective angle.

Fell your charm pet will not hold aggro

This is anecdotal, and not at all what I have experience post-nerf. I still did just fine, in or out of a group setting, in or out of high level/actually challenging areas of content.

Fell Even separated out onto a separate mob from the main fight, the first heal is going to peel aggro

You should learn how Root mechanics work.

Fell With that debuff, the charm pet dies when the mob's still at 80% health, which means you have to swap pets multiple times per mob

Sure, this makes sense for a single spell that can net output 420% of any other class's damage potential and hold aggro on 4+ mobs when combined with a single other, extremely low cost spell... it should OOM you quickly. That's called balance.

Fell But you're de facto agreeing that charm doesn't work in EXP groups.

I am not. Root aggro. Learn how to use it.

Pretty crazy you jerk yourself off this much when it is pretty clear you and your static are second rate. Having lots of time doesn't mean you are the best.

Fell

Clueless You should learn how Root mechanics work.

You should learn that root breaks randomly, especially when the mob's taking dmg. On easy content, no big deal. When your root breaks at the same time as your charm, and your pet is doubling you for 250s while its target is also tripling you for 500s, and the rest of your group is trying to deal with the 5-mob pull that just arrived and you can't CC because you're a wee bit busy -- what then? Yeah --stun is 100% reliable, right?

You can avoid that by doing nothing but a steady stream of easy solo pull blue mobs, sure. But you still have the problem that you're casting a high-mana charm once per incoming mob -- and the math on that don't work, not unless your group is pulling painfully slow.

Pretty crazy you jerk yourself off this much when it is pretty clear you and your static are second rate. Having lots of time doesn't mean you are the best.

It's pretty clear your primary intent is just to troll and flex e-Peen. My group was in FW most every day since it was released, and has been to every camp there multiple times. Odd we never saw you in there anywhere reverse-charming.

Clueless

Fell

Fell Odd we never saw you in there anywhere reverse-charming.

stares in PvP server

Fell

Clueless stares in PvP server

PvP? Ah, that explains the corrosively toxic attitude.

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