Wizard needs help. It is among the worst damage class in the game right now

Fell

Onelove it doesn’t last long enough to take down a mob. That’s the point.

How small is your mana pool that you can't nuke multiple times at level 60? I've seen wizards do 12K damage in 4 quick casts.

I don’t think they could tune wizard burst in such a way that it would give that theme of “if you burn your mana you delete 1 mob”.

It's already tuned that way. "Burn your mana" doesn't mean one single cast -- it means nuking nonstop until you're OOM.

regardless - “burst dps of 250” vs sustained dps of 200 is obviously not tuned correctly.

Sure- if those figures were right. They're not even close.

Mesh

A dozen pages of the same guy arguing that DPS classes shouldn't do good DPS is wild.

Next up: Paladin is the best healer in the game because LoH has the highest burst healing.

Fell

Mesh A dozen pages of the same guy arguing that DPS classes shouldn't do good DPS is wild.

What's wild is refusing to understand the simple logic that, no matter how you sort a list of DPS classes, someone MUST be at the top and someone ELSE must be at the bottom.

Archer, beastmaster, spellblade, rogue, -- all of them have much less utility than a wizard. It takes an extremely dense individual to believe they shouldn't do more sustained damage. Now, you want to talk Elementalist, I'll listen with both ears, and likely agree with most of what you say.

Fell

Mesh Next up: Paladin is the best healer in the game because LoH has the highest burst healing.

Imagine if Paladins could LoH several times in one fight ... then do it all over again in 7 or 8 minutes. I imagine priests would complain about that. But hey, at least you're admitting how valuable burst power is -- can you imagine how Pallies would scream with they lost LoH?

Don't dishonestly misrepresent my remarks. No one said wizards are the best at sustained damage. But anyone who thinks they should be doesn't have a clue about good class design.

Onelove

Fell they are though. It’s been measured.

At 60 you have enough mana for 6 fireballs and then oom.

Then you med for 7ish minutes.

WhiskyJack

Mesh You cant discuss when stupidity is involved. What ever you say will be misconstrued, misunderstood and then pitted against some fantasy scenario that rarely exists if at all. Your best option is probably to just ignore or respond to the parrot with SQUAK SQUAK.

Fell

Onelove At 60 you have enough mana for 6 fireballs and then oom.
Then you med for 7ish minutes.

So 6 fireballs in 30 seconds? What's the max your fireball has hit for? Now work out the dps on that.

Honestly, I wish people would learn the basics of class design. Different classes only matter when they're different.
A wizard can burst like no other class, evac, and a good wiz can CC better than a bad enchanter -- all of which will pull a group's nuts out of the fire in a tough situation. A wizard also gates, ports, gives resist buffs, and the best-in-class debuffs for caster damage. The notion that the class is broken because your only metric is "how much total damage do we do over the course of one evening against easy grind content" is juvenile banality.

Onelove

Fell 3k x 6.

18,000 in the casts it takes. Then you med for 8 minutes.

Someone linked a crit for 3900. But I have no idea what crit rate is, you have a 15% chance to partial resist, and 15% chance to full resist.

So I guess depending on how long we’re talking the burst dps could be “high”. Any measurement longer than 40 seconds and the damage looks pretty bad.

Especially factoring you do nothing for the next 7 minutes while other dps are still slapping.

Druids can invis, sow, root, charm, and nuke within too comfortable a distance. While healing and providing damage shield.

Oh and can port because why not. xD

Raybane

Fell You can't just measure max damage though, not anymore then you can for melee damage, as you need to account for resists and partial resists as well.

Tadorm

Onelove If you play your wizard in a party by mana burning to Oom 1 mob or 2 and then leaving afk 7mins, you are playing your class wrong ( at least in EQ ). A Wizard doesn't have the same DPS than a melee dps class because is not his role. A melee dps can't click a button or 2 and delete an extra mob by pleasure to make a wrong pull get right, Wizard can burst for that. A melee dps can't evacuate the party if something goes wrong, a Wizard can do it. A meleed dps, can't gate, teleport, etc etc utilities a wizard have.
So, of course, a melee dps IS going to have more sustained dps than a Wizard, because everybody has to be good at something.

If you wonder what is your role, you just need to keep your Wizard in the 70-80% mana all the time, by doing 1 nuke per fight to keep adding value to your mana meditation but keeping a pool of mana to help your party getting out of a dire situation. Kind of simple to understand, talking about dps numbers that you do not provide with actual logs from fights is rubish and Devs should look on those to increase or decrease your mana pool, spell damage or melee dps damage to balance stuff but they shouldn't make a Wizard sustain dps be equal to a melee dps.

tummystix

Wizards are getting help. Enchanters will be mana battery'n them with all their extra mana they save from not charming! 😄

Onelove Then you med for 8 minutes.

Between arcane invocation (5m CD) and Sorc Mind (10 mana regen. Enlightenment is only 12). My 60 wizard was full mana before invocation was off CD.

Yall need to get a vile bastard sword and a stirring stick then weave in wizard dual wield white damage between volley and surges... Battlewizard style! Sword procs for like 36 mana 😆

Fell

Onelove 18,000 in the casts it takes. Then you med for 8 minutes.

Someone linked a crit for 3900. But I have no idea what crit rate is, you have a 15% chance to partial resist, and 15% chance to full resist.

So I guess depending on how long we’re talking the burst dps could be “high”. Any measurement longer than 40 seconds and the damage looks pretty bad

Nonsense. 18000 damage in 30 seconds-- the crit rate balances out the resist, and your figure of a 30% full or partial resist rate is far too high, not if the mob's been debuffed.

Unless they're burning long-cooldown specials, the best another class can do is about one-third of that. Even if we stretch the interval to one minute, you can med up enough for another cast in that time, which still puts you over double what anyone else can do.

Could wiz burst damage be higher still, without being imbalancing? I think so -- and I think it would preserve class identity far more to increase that further (possibly via one very long-cooldown spell) RATHER homogenizing you with greater sustained damage. You're not archers, plinking out endless streams of fireballs like roman candles.

Raybane

Fell Druid burst damage is way closer to Wizard then 1/3rd.

Fell

Raybane Druid burst damage is way closer to Wizard then 1/3rd.

Yes, but that's not the argument. The claim is that burst damage is too close to the sustained damage of other classes -- classes that can keep that damage up continually, without the long med time a wizard requires after bursting.

No one's adding a druid to a group for their burst damage, and no one's going to pass up a wizard in a dps role to get a druid instead.

Zaroua

tummystix Between arcane invocation (5m CD) and Sorc Mind (10 mana regen. Enlightenment is only 12). My 60 wizard was full mana before invocation was off CD.

Yall need to get a vile bastard sword and a stirring stick then weave in wizard dual wield white damage between volley and surges... Battlewizard style! Sword procs for like 36 mana

You can also melee while meditating. STR/DEX Wizards on the rise!

Raybane

Fell So far the discussion have been mostly about Wizards lacking sustained damage. But when talking about burst damage so should it be taken into account that there are many other classes, not only Druids, that can also do burst damage on demand. Druids dps is also not bad as damage shield does add quite a lot of sustained damage to a group. Druids are for sure more popular in groups as they can also fill the healer role if that is required.

Fell

Raybane when talking about burst damage so should it be taken into account that there are many other classes, not only Druids, that can also do burst damage on demand

And I'd love to see some hard numbers that justify a wizard getting more burst dmg. 18K dmg in 30 secs is 600 dps. Elementalists weren't terribly far behind that-- until they took a huge nuke nerf. Currently I don't know any class that can beat half that ... do you?

Druids are for sure more popular in groups as they can also fill the healer role if that is required.

That is indeed a druid's only reason for existence. They can't heal like a cleric, and -- unless they have someone to slow for them -- they can't keep up with a shaman either. They're invited to groups to fill both roles: heals and damage.

Raybane

Fell First, that damage number doesn't account for resists and no, crits do not happen often enough to make up for resists. Debuffing resists would also take cast time increasing the time required to do that damage, this would also need to happen again for each mob. This number also assumes full marks, so time for launching volley first is needed, for each mob.

The obvious class that beats half that is Druid being able to match about 80% even, well above half.

It's still possible that Elementalists could get up to half a Wizards burst, even at their current nerfed state as they did get some pet buffs that could combine with their little nukes.

Other then that so are there not that many burst focused classes, possibly Spellblade could do it as well as they got cooldowns they can activate and burn some mana as well.

Fell

Raybane Debuffing resists would also take cast time increasing the time required to do that damage,

It doesn't work that way. First, you debuff mobs always regardless-- or should be. Secondly, you reserve burst damage for when its necessary: you're fighting a mob when the enchanter dies to an unexpected add -- wizard goes into burst mode, and boom! Current target dead.

The obvious class that beats half that is Druid being able to match about 80% even, well above half.

Yes, a good 80% -- if they have a wizard in the group with them. But druids don't compete with wizards on burst damage, because they're also well below wizards on sustained damage -- which is why no druid ever takes a DPS spot away from a wizard.

Raybane

Fell You don't always debuff cold and fire resists for every mob just in case it's needed later, that would be such a waste of time and mana most of the time.

Yes, burst is to be used when it's useful, that is why we are talking about it as if it's something useful in the first place.

Whatever gives you the idea that no Druid have taken a dps spot away from a Wizard? Druid also brings buffs, like SoW, Regen, AC and more importantly Damage Shield that does quite a lot of sustained damage. There is also the quite tangible advantage that if the current healer have to leave, then the Druid can step in and take over. Druid is quite frankly more popular, even for dps, then a Wizard.

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