Player summoning

Velthorian

Kirrund I very well may be wrong 40+, I don't have your experience. What I do have, is a fresh perspective on the re-works in the low game. And a ton of experience with pet classes in prior MMO's. I still respect your opinion, and you it's very possible I will be regretting my choice to go Ele and you are right the whole time. I approach "Launch Characters" a bit differently however, my heart is really in the SK / DPS Tank. This is a "Starter" character for me, rapid leveling, green farming, low gear dependance. I do find it concerning that they would give a Necro a group Damage shield, that seems very very out of character for the class and wildly inappropriate.

Velthorian

Fell Is it one of the most popular classes for grouping? Air pets that good eh? My grouping experience is limited, i mostly soloed. In EQ it was quite popular, specifically for COTH and group rep replacements, period, that and Malise (20 minute magic debuff, for charmed pets). In classic era TLP usage, where charm is still OP as fuck for EQ enchanters, Shaman and Mages where highly desired to Debuff the magic resistance of the mob so that charm lasted longer. We have lost that ability 100% here, element break is too short in duration, and does not touch MR, and im also uncertain if -MR even has an effect on charm duration here.

EQ Mage - BIS DS - BIS resist debuff - BIS AOE Rains - 2nd best PBAOE, COTH, BIG Short duration DS - player selectable Magic or Fire DD, Summoned Only spells with superior cast time, -resist check, and ratios, against constructs and summoned creatures, of which there where many. (hmm, well, perhaps not in classic, there where MANY raid trash targets, later) Pet Armor, targetable summons.. you start to see where the MNM version falls flat. Hell, we even had a pretty good DOT for a few levels, wish they carried that line on.

I really don't like interacting with you on this topic anymore. I suggested an alternative ability requiring a player as a reagent, heavily limiting the functionality and utility of this spell, mitigating abuse, while still allowing it's core function to work, you ignored it. Also, i don't have a problem with sharing this ability with 1 other class, don't really care which one.

Fell

Velthorian Is it one of the most popular classes for grouping? Air pets that good eh? My grouping experience is limited, i mostly soloed. I

If I'm filling a DPS spot, mage is normally my first choice, unless I need something in particular from another class (I've taken necro when a break was necessary and no enchanter/bard available).

I suggested an alternative ability requiring a player as a reagent, heavily limiting the functionality and utility of this spell, mitigating abuse

If you can camp a mage twink to summon people at a safe spot, you can camp a mage twink and a low-level alt. But safe-spot camping is only part of the problem. The bigger issue is the summon itself -- it allows groups to hold camps in perpetuity, even high-dollar, hard-to-reach crawl-to camps. If you're losing group members, then go out and reform ... and if some OTHER group gets there in the meantime, you lost the camp.

There are already PLENTY of camps where you can cycle in new members ad infinitum, with zero effort or stress. Making all camps this effortless is not a change for the better.

Velthorian

Fell The way the ability works is :

Player standing in front of you gets swapped with player at the front of dungeon. It only works with 2 players involved. Unless your going to camp 40 mules in a safe spot, your not summoning an entire raid force. You run out of reagents, immediately, you could also tighten this up by implementing a level requirement on both players. So your also not camping level 1 mules, your camping 40 level 50+ mules.. it accomplishes the goal, and makes it not worth the effort to game this.

My solution address abuse, but your against the entire premise of COTH altogether for the points you mentioned, so no matter what Abuse solution we come up with it won't be good enough. Im not quite certain why you are still participating.

The player swapping nature as implemented gives additional utility and appeal beyond standard COTH in the fact that it can be used to get Melee out and New blood in, cause that's what every fighter wants to do at 3am, get the fuck out the dungeon, while their eyelids drag, and they don't have Invis, or gate, guranteed corpse run tomorrow. lol If one intends to stay in the area to look for a group the next day, even better that they did not have to get TL'ed to bind.

Fell

Velthorian Player standing in front of you gets swapped with player at the front of dungeon. It only works with 2 players involved.

Nice idea, very original It solves the raid problem, but not the larger point I raised about holding crawl camps in perpetuity. And why give it to elementalists, one of the most popular classes in game? Give it to rangers, or a support class.

Velthorian

Fell If elementalist don't need it, to be in demand, perhaps you are correct. I still believe someone should be able to do it. If elementalist end up LFG for hours because they offer nothing but DPS, and DPS classes are a dime a dozen, then we might have a broader complaint.

Fell

BTW, any Tier 1 Raiding guild would respond to your COTH nerf by simply requiring members to camp a level 1 alt at the spot. Raid day comes, you swap your main with your alt, kill Lord High Master FatLewtz, then swap the alt back and camp out again.

I think the hour-long cooldown is best. That mostly solves the raid issue, and partially permacamping as well ... you can replace members, but no more one per hour.

Velthorian

Fell It seems rather unlikely to have 40 level 1 toons camped deep in a dungeon, (how did they even get down there?) but i would not put it past some poop socker guilds. Also easily solved by a level requirement. Make the 2 players required to be within 10 levels of each other to work. Now your camping level 50 alts, it starts getting impractical, pretty quick. Also, i tend to agree, that EQ already solved this problem in it's current form, and we don't need to re-invent the wheel. (Disabled, as needed in raid zones/areas where dev's explicitly don't want it) Coth was only ever a problem in EQ during early days before they understood the mechanics of it completely, it was later fixed, it's like people forgot that, perhaps because they have not played modern EQ.

In your senario, the level 1 toons have to be at the safe spot in the dungeon, where the Elementalist is at. They can't just be standing at the entrance, as there are no reagents at the elementalist location. And if they where theoretically at the safe spot, they won't be at the time of swap, necessitating that they get back there again, for next week. Pretty impractical to get level 1 toons to a safe spot to act as reagents, if its' that easy to get there, no coth needed at all. Not much raid utility at all honestly, aside from edge cases like "Jimmy is lost, but Bob is a veteran, lets swap their places, bob can get back to the raid on his own" ie Swapping a rogue/monk for a fighter, or rogue for anything else.

Fell

Velthorian It seems rather unlikely to have 40 level 1 toons camped deep in a dungeon,

Not unlikely in the least -- on my various EQ servers, I had dozens of toons perma-camped in all sorts of unlikely places, for various purposes. And even here in the MnM beta and without CoTH, guilds were having members camp their mains -- their mains -- at raid locations, then playing alts until a mob spawned.

But back to CoTH -- in properly designed content, crawling / clearing to a camp should be as engaging as the camp itself. It's certainly far more interesting and enjoyable than spending 20 minutes mindlessly running across newbie zones. If you want to fix the "its 3AM and we need a replacement fast" problem, focus on that side of the equation.

Velthorian

Fell You may not be fully understanding the mechanics of my solution. It pretty much only focus on the group aspect and eliminates any abuse potential.

Player 1 and Player 2, both are required to intiate the spell. Player 1 is the guy we want at party, player 2 is already here, and is "The reagent". If player 2 is not within 10 feet the spell does not work. As sooon as the spell is intiated the 2 players swap location, if player 2 is a level 1 mule, the spell does not work, he's too far away from player 1's level, if he is a camped level appropriate mule, he's now standing at the front of the dungeon, and player 1 is standing with the elementalist, and there are no more reagents availible to pull anyone else down, all we can do is swap previous player 2 for someone else. Now your mule is out of location, and must find his way back for next weeks encounter.

Edit: I suppose, upon further thinking, at the end of the raid, we do all this in reverse, pulling our level appropriate mule from the front of the dungeon back to the safe area, so that this process can be repeated. Still feel like it's alot of work hehe. << this is the kind of feedback i wanted when I pitched this idea, several post ago, I wanted the community to help me brainstorm it for possible abuse scenarios. Ironically im the only one thinking about it, so im the first to find this flaw.

Tsunamisan

After seeing what they gave to the necro it was like a pure slap in the face to ELE. The pact line specifically.

Pact of Deathly Enduring: Bind your vitality to your pet, reducing your maximum Health and making them tougher: more Armor Class, more Health Regeneration and more maximum Health.

This is exactly what ELE should of had with their pet. Necro shouldn't have a stand up tank that compares or is better than the ELE. Reading this that is exactly what they intend an crapping on the ELE yet again. They only take thing away. Might as well delete the class at this point and all roll necros. there isn't anything fun left here @aLovingRobot

saephellar

Tsunamisan 100%! It was basically a middle finger to the elementalist. The hatred they have for this class is staggering. Necro got an amazing rework that didn't impede on its gameplay at all and just extended and it kept all of its utility and even got the fire elemental buff. It's sad but looking at this rework it's clear they don't care about this class and it would be better if they just remove it from the game tbh cause it doesn't bring anything useful to the table other than very minor things that have been stated before, cause there is really no reason to roll an ele over a necro at this point it's actually kind of embarrassing to run an ele now with necro being much better and people are gonna say oh but ele has better pets. Ok? Yeah they are stronger but by like what 20 or 30%? This still doesn't justify all the things necro does better than ele. I'd still choose necro over ele even if necro pets did half the damage and had half the hp the ele pet did. The pros and cons are just too wide. But anyways. I know what I'll be playing now knowing how they'll be like after the rework. I just put in my sub 😊

Tsunamisan

loved my necro in EQ the pets were never meant to be long duration tanks like they are here. More like added damage as you dot kited either fear or agro. Which are still just as viable here.

I really was hoping for the ele to get some utility. Not just link your life to your pet. Oh wait that's pretty much what the necro does now. But seriously if your pet dies you might as well too there is nothing you can do! Cant CC root mez or anything. and oh wait Necro can do all of those and even FD if they have too.

The term "Balance of Power" Devs Learn it! Your failing this class miserably and stacking all your cards on the other pet class.

Tsunamisan

I see no reason to play ELE anymore!

Unchainedfury

saephellar Necro got an amazing rework that didn't impede on its gameplay at all

Not quite true. I'll elaborate over in at the necro class area, instead of here.

Ele's need some loving, and sooner rather than later imo.

Unchainedfury

Tsunamisan

Take a breather, Tsunamisan 🙂

I'm not thrilled with the necro "pet-focused" rework and rather give that to the Elementalist. I thought we were going in the direction of less overlap, not more.. /shrug

saephellar

Unchainedfury What do you specifically want from necro that wasn't there previously? Share your thoughts. I didn't have any issues with the class. It was a breath of fresh air coming from ele as they their playstyle is a boring 1 button rotation and bandage making bot that buffs the pet every minute and a half.

Tsunamisan

saephellar Exactly the point. To use a analogy. They are giving all the wine and butter to the necro and leaving us with a stale loaf of bread.

saephellar

Tsunamisan Same here! It's sad because thematically I love Ele alot more! I love the pets more and how they look and the "fantasy" of the class more than necro but after the rework I just couldn't play it anymore. I loved seeing the elementals even get bigger every 4 levels. I didn't actually really mind buying new pets every 4 levels. I kind of enjoyed the constant feeling of seeing and feeling of my pets getting stronger too. I know I am the minority in this, but I enjoyed it and didn't see it as a big issue. But necro has alot more skills and I can actually enjoy the benefit of utilizing the charm/mez/fear skills because undead are everywhere in this game, so the game rewards you more for being a necro too. I wish ele can change sometime in the recent future but it doesn't seem like it will D:

Unchainedfury

saephellar

Tsunamisan

https://forum.monstersandmemories.com/d/1291-necromancer-deep-dive-discussion/25

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