Player summoning

Fell

Velthorian I don't find your argument worthy of a response

Apparently you did 😃

Tsunamisan

Worthy of reply if not worthy of having foot to stand on for the argument.
That 3 am Scenario is exactly why COTH should exist. A 5 man group that already fought their way should not have to walk back up to get a replacement to fill that 6th slot. It also depends who is leaving. If it is a melee class it is just being nice to escort them out!. But if your replacing a caster that can gate then it is easy to just pull another in. ELE pulls them in and WIZ sends them home. Nobody complains when its leaving a dungeon bypassing content you would have to fight out. Their is not difference which way you are going. All i can se is the devs hate ELE. The revamp showed as much. Expect necro to be packed full of good stuff because they actually play it or atleast Nick did.

Tuna

Tsunamisan Ya its force me and friend rolling necro, not ele in EA. Same pets but ele have nothing to compare necro abilities, just bandages, its very sad. Also necro even not have deep dive yet, i sure them will be much more stronger and interesting to play.

Unchainedfury

Tsunamisan

Agreed that is truly is dependent upon the class leaving and incoming rep: MT or Main Healer, Group is done.

Caster DPS can just invis, for the most part, and rogue can stealth down. 30% of the classes can already make this scenario not to big of a deal, but if it's a MT/MH, then the group is just going to call it.

Now, weigh out the cost of having a CoTH'er in the group versus "trivializing content", and we're reducing the scenarios of repping personnel in the group to an even smaller %. You have to have an Ele in the group to even utilize this. What % of players are going to be Elementalists? 20%? 30%? How often will content be "trivialized" in this environment?

I think the main reason CoTH was removed was due to raid situations, not exactly CoTHing reps to a group. Parking a CoTH'er at a safe spot in a zone for a raid target has much more value/impact than any group rep scenarios, by far.

It's such a disparity, I don't believe CoTHing reps to a group is even in the thought process.

No amount of "trivializing (group/travel) content" discussion is going to persuade me that the impact of repping someone in the group is so obscene, it must be removed.

EDIT: The group rep benefits of CoTH far outweigh the raid target downsides, which can also be nerfed in many ways. Bring back CoTH, for the people!

Unchainedfury

Tuna sure them will be much more stronger and interesting to play. (necro)

I hope so, but i'm not sure about that.

Ele's truly need more utility out of their class, altogether. EB summon item is a step in the right direction, but I'd like to see more elemental synergy, and summoning, with the class. Really lean into it.

saephellar

Unchainedfury yeah I tried necro before the beta closed and the only thing elementalist has over them is bandages and summon weapons which any player can make cause the reagants required for them drop like 90% from humanoids which is embarrassing and pathetic, and the weapons are so weak and only good for a small proc chance damage bonus which doesn't happen often. Eles have skills like fear/charm/mez the elements, but elementals are virtually non existent in this game. I've only ever seen like enemy elementals like literally 3 times no kidding and 2 of them were special/boss enemies which you can't even use things like charm, fear or mez anyways which makes CC Impossible. No wonder they got rid of invisibility versus the elements. Cause the required enemies seem to be missing from this game. Don't even get me started with master of the elements. It was useless before the rework and remained useless afterwards. They gave us elemental resurgence which has a 30m CD to immediately summon a pet like are you serious? Like why even play an elementalist? Necros can summon pets too, have the same heal as ele, have more dps options, can feign death, have a usable charm/mez/fear cause undead are all over this game. They can summon corpse, life drain/summon life stone etc. They are just a better class objectively across the board I was surprised when I found this out. There is no balance here.

saephellar

Kirrund thank you so much please do this. I'm glad we're not the only one that sees this. The devs don't play ele and it shows. I will play necro too depending on the rework. Let's hope they don't mess up their rework too. Fingers crossed.

saephellar

Dewey when will they come? The game is in early access now and ready to be released according to the developers and players have been giving feedback for years. For example master of the elements is still useless even AFTER the rework. For a game that's in Early access, something like this should have been fixed by this recent rework at the LATEST. But nope and reading someone's comment from above that only 2 devs made it to 60 and most are not passed 30 surprised me but it also makes sense seeing how the reworks are going. I know the devs are busy with the game but their needs to be more devs actively playing to understand these issues players keep mentioning like the one I did earlier in this post.

Fell

Tsunamisan That 3 am Scenario is exactly why COTH should exist. A 5 man group that already fought their way should not have to walk back up to get a replacement to fill that 6th slot

Your statement translates to: "it's late and we're tired so we want a shortcut." Nor is it limited to just that sxith slot -- once in place, you can summon replacements forever, until the entire original group is gone and none of those there actually fought there way down. Nor is this some rare occurrence -- it was the NORM in high-dollar, hard-to-reach EQ camps. A rotating semi-permagroup would form early each day, and last 12, sometimes 18+ hours.

Even ignoring that, your argument is a justification for giving ALL groups summon. Not just mages.

Kirrund

Tsunamisan Don't respond to him. He is best ignored.

Velthorian

Tuna Eh, it's not quite that simple. Elementalist do have some strong advantages at certain level ranges. 1-16 in significantly in favor of Elementalist for example. They will out-level a necro in this range, with relative ease. Damage shields are potent, as is Pet-Chaining, and pet Empowerment buffs, bandages, Necro toolkit is far more versatile, but at least in the 1-40 game, Ele's are still robust/potent, despite some glaring issues.

I've heard "Necro pets are the same" a few times, but not really. They might ahve the same HP/AC/ATK, but the elementalist kit changes the math a bit, better heals, haste, pet always equipped with weapons for DW as opposed to sometimes equipped, damage shields, empowerment. Even if they are "The same" they are not "The same". Whatever mana effciency is lost on the Ele is made up in spades by Damage Shields.. the most efficient form of damage in the game, aside from pets themselves. At least until scaling issues arise and the DS math gets mucked. Not sure when that happens, it did not happen for me 1-25 run on Ele.

Necros are "Technically better" at solo then elementalist, but the way it plays out is not how you think. Similiar to EQ i'd imagine. Necros might be better equipped to solo dungeon crawl, or take down very hard targets out in the open. But they are not as potent in tight quarters, and while gameplay might look like a necro pulling yellows/reds the Elementalist will have killed 3 light blues in the same time, so XP/Hour, and Loot/Hour is "up in the air" between the two. There is something to be said for simple robustness, no song and dance required, you either can do the content or you can't. No FD and losing the pet to have to re-summon it, no root rotting, no fear kiting, just send and go or no.

In the last 2 weeks of Beta i played Necro to 12, then i played ele to 12, the ele was significantly easier/faster. I stopped playing necro at 12, and played ele to 25, then another ele to 15, then another ele to 12.

When it's all said and done, Elementalist will likely end up slightly ahead in the group game, but that's not guaranteed, if they never give us AE or COTH.

I still plan to EA start Elementalist, despite how busted they currently are.

Kirrund

Velthorian I've heard "Necro pets are the same" a few times, but not really. They might ahve the same HP/AC/ATK, but the elementalist kit changes the math a bit, better heals, haste, pet always equipped with weapons for DW as opposed to sometimes equipped, damage shields, empowerment. Even if they are "The same" they are not "The same". Whatever mana effciency is lost on the Ele is made up in spades by Damage Shields.. the most efficient form of damage in the game, aside from pets themselves. At least until scaling issues arise and the DS math gets mucked. Not sure when that happens, it did not happen for me 1-25 run on Ele.

They were the same until the rework, so for the majority of the time that game has been playable, this was the experience. You also have some mistakes in your assessment.

1.) They had the exact same heals until the rework. Now Ele has their heal extended to 52, but necro doesn't have their rework, so we don't know if they also get their heal extended to 52, or if they lose it all together and their "life transfer" gets way better, etc.

2.) They still have the exact same haste/str buff, but necro got theirs sooner than ele before the rework (I don't know if the rework downshifted the haste/str buff in the rework, I didn't check). Now, this is still true, but ele have an additional secondary haste with empowerment.

3.) Pets don't need to be equipped with weapons to dual wield. They always dual wield at 36. Pets DO NOT dual wield before 36 regardless of whether they are holding weapons or not. It's only for looks. At 36, they gain offhand swings. The summoned weapons ONLY add the proc damage as their contribution, they will do nothing in regards to their damage or delay ratios. If the summoned weapons didn't have procs, it would be entirely pointless to hand them to pets at all.

4.) Damage shields are nice, but does a damage shield make up for your pet not taking damage at all from fear/snare, which have negligable mana costs?

5.) Necro can pet chain if they want, and they have free lich form clarity to be able to do it longer, if they choose (It's 35mp a tic at 60, for example). They also can simply root the mob to recast their pet if they want. Ele better time it all correctly or else it's time to gate.

6.) Empowerment is nice, yes, post rework. We don't yet know what necro will get, but they are getting swarm pets according to the writeup.

7.) Bandages are great. If you're a necro, just ask your ele friend or guildmate to give you 200 bandages in exchange for a healthstone. Elementalists LOVE clicking summon bandage 50 times in a row. I bet you I hold the closed beta RECORD for casting summon bandages.

A note about damage shield. A damage shield is only as effecient the health pool of the target it's cast on. It's always better to take zero damage, than to take a lot of damage and give some back.

Velthorian

Sorry, many of your points don't line up with Reality.

Pet Strength: They are immediately, dramatically stronger, from level 1. It's extremely apparent, play test it.

Point 1, Ele's have more then a heal, they have unlimited bandages, and empowerment. This is healing above and beyond the regular instant heal.

Point 2 : They don't have empowerment, which adds additional haste, and damage stats.

Point 3: That's not true as of now, my pet frequently says "Jobober hits with his off hand" even at level 1.

Point 4: Damage shields are extremely potent, period. My experience only extends from 1-25.

Point 5: Necro does have some advantages here, not sure about mana cost, currently Minor rank pets are a laughable 30 mana, not sure if necro's mirror that, this effects pet chain ability a lot. 2nd rank pets do up the ante alot @ 130 mana. But you can legit summon a level 20 earth pet for 30 mana.

Point 6: don't want to speculate. Elementalist could also get COTH.

Point 7: it's such a strong utility, im not going to nitpick summoning 4 at a time. I keep it on my bar all the time, and summon one here, one there.

Finally, I know your a level 60 Ele, I also know 90% of that was pre-rework. Appreciate the thoughts.

Kirrund

Velthorian

Why are you saying the same things I already said in all the points? It was all addressed?

Also, as the necro deep dive is out, their pet heal got extended. They also have a way to buff their pet's tankiness ability, and give it a way to proc a group heal.

1.) You seem to be ignoring the fact that as a necro with CC, you don't need your pet to take damage at all. That's infinite healing.

2.) I already covered this.

3.) Screenshots or it didn't happen. I've already dealt with this before and I had to go show my level 1 pet not doing offhand attacks to prove to someone, like you, who thought their pet was doing offhand attacks at level 1.

4.) Covered it already. Never said damage shield wasn't good.

5.) There's more to this than you are aware of, but I'm not willing to go into details right now. It'll be even more apparent if we get the numbers for necromancer chain pet summoning costs, since theirs scale like ele and enchanters do now.

7.) That's a problem.

Fell

Velthorian Damage shields are extremely potent, period. My experience only extends from 1-25.

And it's true all the way to 60 too - perhaps even more so, as fights last longer and mobs hit faster. DS is particularly potent on mobs/areas that spawn spawns of low-heath, low-dmg greens -- the dmg shield eats them alive.

Honestly, "necro v. mage" is an argument only for its own sake: the two classes are extremely well balanced vs. each other. Mages have a slight damage advantage ... but necros have FD. The only person of ANY class I've ever seen soloing on Floor 3 of FW was a necro.

Kirrund 1.) You seem to be ignoring the fact that as a necro with CC, you don't need your pet to take damage at all. That's infinite healing.

I know a few 60 necros who'd love to know how they can always prevent their pet from dying in any and all situations, because "they have CC".

Velthorian

Certainly not ignoring that necros can fear kite and root rott. But those also, are not free. You will likely need to fear a mob 4-6 times in reality, at 30 mana a pop, (the cost of an entire new ele pet, pre 20) while also not getting any damage from DS. This go's back to picking the right targets, you should be choosing low blues to maximize the amount of times your fire pet gets hit for 1 and returns full DS damage on every strike.

Fear kiting is also risky, often times, in a way that fighting in tight quarters is not. You can get adds easily, even out doors, try fear kiting skeletons in Fallen pass, (and come back with 6 dwarf druid skeletons) or Humanoids with roamers.

A note on Dual Wield, you may be right about level 1, no way to verify right now. But i have 100% seen my pet hitting with his off hand prior to level 36. (this checks out -- in everquest pets could dual wield about 10-15 levels sooner, when equipped) Obviously, this does level out, but it's still an advantage early. (and probably something you should be doing as well, as a necro, carry rusty daggers. )

Biggest outstanding issues are Elemental Bolt needs a balance pass/adjustment.
We need a bit more engagement/choice with damage and abilities, either more nukes, of different resist types, not tied to whatever pet is active, and /or AOE, COTH, better summons, targetable summons, and i'd love to have some high damage shield options 50+ (Like a 150 mana DS that hits 5 times for 100 damage each, and stacks with long duration DS).

Tying our main DD to our pet in the way they have chosen is not a good idea. In a group you want an Air pet or Water pet, depending if it's caster heavy or melee heavy, that means your DD is always either Magic/Ice or Magic/Magic, if you where fighting mobs that are resistant to those forms of damage, your only recourse is to summon a pet that is not ideal to get the resist type you need. It's bad design.

Grass is always greener friend.

Kirrund

Velthorian
I know that you're wrong, despite your stubbornness. As between us I'm the only person that's played to 60 and seen all this stuff and gathered info from other Eles also testing, now I will be playing a necro and they lost nothing in their rework, and instead gained a bunch of new stuff centered around making their pets better.

After my testing, I guess we will see if the new pet buffs put the pet on par with the earth elemental tanking ability, or how good the group heal is for added utility to a group, since I will be taking a necro to 60 this time.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that, as I called it, Burning Bones (the level 16 unique pet quested by necro, that's been in the game a while) is called out in the deep dive as an example of what to look forward to with what pet collecting necro has. I suggested that it would lead to feature creep into Elementalist territory, and lo and behold! Guess what the burning bones spell does? Gives you a necro pet that has spells and the fire elemental aura stapled onto it, but better.

Fell

Velthorian Grass is always greener friend.

^^ This. If he actually thought necro was a stronger class -- he'd play a necro.

To return to the point of the thread -- no one has advanced a good reason why ANY class should have the ability to summon other players, much less mages. If anyone should get it, it should be rangers -- and limited to outdoor zones. God knows rangers need all the help they can get.

Kirrund

Fell ^^ This. If he actually thought necro was a stronger class -- he'd play a necro.

I am, and I've said as much multiple times. It is a stronger class.

Fell To return to the point of the thread -- no one has advanced a good reason why ANY class should have the ability to summon other players, much less mages. If anyone should get it, it should be rangers -- and limited to outdoor zones. God knows rangers need all the help they can get.

It has been made clear multiple times, but you don't read or accept any of those points.

Fell

Kirrund It has been made clear multiple times, but you don't read or accept any of those points.

The only point made was that, if it's late and people are tired, they should be able to skip content and save time. If you accept that point as valid, then logically you have to answer two other questions as well:

If player summoning is so crucial, why limit it to just one class, especially a class that's already one of the most popular classes for grouping. Give it to the sad-sack rangers, or a utility/support class.
If the goal is to save time and hassle, why limit it to in-zone? Make it a reverse-port, and allow druids to port people to the group straight from town.

« Previous Page Next Page »