Proof Leveling is still far too fast.

Incantus

Fell Its not about how long the game has been out, its about the feeling of progression.

I play 15 hour session with my static every day up to 60, we went into this prepared to do so, took time off etc. It was a choice we made.

90% of the playerbase is still 1-20 every time I check /who all on my server. I am an extreme outlyer not the norm.
But xp cant be tuned around the efficency we are grinding at.

It needs to be tuned for my guildie who is level 15 with 4 days of /played.

Fell

Incantus Its not about how long the game has been out, its about the feeling of progression

That's the point I'm making. If you set the expectation that "I'm not progressing if I'm not making a level every couple hours I play", then even casual players will max within three months, and what do you think happens then? Your level 15 guildie will quit ... if he hasn't already because, by the time he hits 30, every loot camp in the game is perma-farmed by a solo level 60.

You value a virtue character by the time and effort it took you to create it. Faster leveling devalues the process itself.

Incantus 90% of the playerbase is still 1-20 every time I check /who all on my server.

No. As of this moment, 298 on Tilustra, 49 of which are 20-45. There are also 19 players /anon of which it's a safe assumption most or all of these are above that 20 cap.

Ocellus

Here's the problem with the argument "let everyone play their style, the game is hard enough, how does it affect you if someone races to 60?"

Anyone that thinks beyond their on play style in game and zoom out the dynamics of the larger world will realize that people getting to 60 in 120 or even 200 hours of steady play will do the following:

60s will start perma camping named
The economy will be loaded with high tier weapons that will make getting them in game meaningless.
Twinks will then dominate and continue the above trends, only faster
As people race ahead and finish the run in under 60 hours, they will have no idea how to actually play their character effectively in high end content when others eventually catch up.

Here's the problem with the issue with the "if you slow ir down you'll lose players".

That's lazy and unsupported by data.
If it turns out to be true and you actually lose players because of it, good. Move on to a game that you can finish in 120 hours that doesn't make its CENTRAL THEME slow progression, meaningful play, group dynamics, player interaction.
Those players that hang through the slow progression will be far better players at higher end content.
Players that hang through the slow progression that, rather than get sad and frustrated by that, but rather revel in it, enjoy it, truly immerse themselves in the game will attract others that feel the same way, making for a much richer community.
The type of player that claims that 120 hours to 60 is not only reasonable but thinks it's too slow will not enjoy this game no matter what you do. They are looking to run the board and ignore the charms of such a well thought out, deeply immersive, complex game. They cheapen it. Thus, if this is who the game would lose, I welcome it.

I don't care what any of you say, progression is too fast, much too fast. It is the ONLY thing I have seen going on with this project that makes me actually worry about causing the game to be a short term success that results in low population servers. Low enough to take away everything that developers have talked about for years: building a rich, interwoven, complex community experience.

I'm done. I truly, honestly, unequivocally hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

Maps

In the original 1999 launch of EverQuest, it took the first players roughly two to three weeks of continuous, heavy round-the-clock grinding to reach the level 50 cap.
The game shouldn't be built to delay those people who are dedicated to the game to the point that they forego sleeping, eating, bathing, spending time with family, having a normal life, just to hit the max level. They are going to do what they are going to do, and they will either move on or they won't. The majority of people have other priorities and aren't going to race to max level.
The level speed seems pretty natural to me.

Jesica

for how "fast" the leveling is for some of these people; you'd think they'd be level 50 already, instead of writing essays on the forums

Plok

What level are the highest soloers though?

Jesica

Plok we have a necro on my server (Klint) that's mid/high 40s and has progressed much faster than any 6 person static 🙂

Blaza

As a relatively casual player, who is too young to have played EQ, I am level 8 as a ranger with ₁₅ hours played mostly in groups and mostly killing mobs. I haven't done much tradeskilling at all.

At this rate it will take me 112.5 hours to max level assuming I keep the pace of 1 level/1.875 hours. I likely wont as pugs thin and playerbase begins to optimize, play only with their guilds, etc.

Lets compare with Guild Wars 2, a modern mmo. I have 90 hours in that game and know I maxed out a character around 35-40 hours in. Quick search says average casual is 30-50 hours.

So lets assume I am off a bit and it took me 45 hours to max. At 112 hours M&M is taking 2.5 times as long just for max level.

Of course M&M isn't looking at modern mmos for design choices, but I think its good to point out how modern mmos actually are, as in the Sandwich thread I saw some people comparing M&M's APM to modern mmos and that just isn't correct

RogerDabbit

Ocellus The idea that the leveling speed is the one thing that's currently on the verge of making or breaking this game is a little bit dramatic imo.

Incantus

Fell Maybe dont assume everyone is like your server? Vespyra has 1000 players on peak hours, around 800 of those where 1-20 yesterday.

You assume people are going to get bored by hitting max level... That is not the case for a game like this. But you do you. I have no interest in gaining a level a day at 1-20. Now at 40+ I am happy to get 2-3 levels a day. Yesterday we went 39-42 in about 15 hours played. You genuinely think this is to fast? This is non-stop grinding xp btw, no pauses, no runs to sell, no tradeskills. Nothing but killing.

Nazgrimn

I played beta for 5 months and my highest level character was 52.
I didn't do a lot of trade skills but I did explore quite a bit. Had fun doing dungeon crawls, camping items and generally just having fun.
In my opinion, the leveling speed is just fine. I wouldn't be interested in playing a game where it was any slower. I think many people would agree, probably the majority of the player base.

You can't balance the game around the 1%.
The people that are already above level 40 are efficient, have planned this out for a while now and are unwavering. The majority of the player base are not like that or they are brand new and still discovering the world.

You may not like how fast they are leveling. That's fine. You're certainly entitled to your opinion but it doesn't make it right and it certainly doesn't give you the right to enforce your beliefs on the rest of us.

Ultimately the devs will make the call. They are in possession of information the rest of us can likely fathom. They monitor EVERYTHING. It's actually kinda scary. 😂

If you feel you're leveling too fast, take a break. Get out and explore. Stop worrying about other people.

ZenProtocol

Fell 100% agree. We should not be seeing anyone past level 20 at this point, even no lifers. They will burn out in a month.

Defectui

Incantus

Those numbers are also being pulled at 7 AM EST.

298 players on a server that had 1,576 concurrent at 9:30 PM last night and 3,180 daily active. It's reasonable to think a 7 AM polling would skew towards the more hardcore players, and even then level 20 through 45 is a massive range. If that's all taken at face value, only 23% of those playing during off hours on a weekday are above level 20.

It's all a lot of speculation and "unsupported by data." aLovingRobot mentioned here that they are tracking and discussing this information constantly. I trust them to do what is best for the project. I have no idea what the XP rate at higher levels is like on MnM but I fully expect that levels 50-60 will take twice as much as 1-50 from what players have mentioned. It remains to be seen if this whole "120 hours to level 60" prediction is even remotely realistic.

Daytime

ZenProtocol

How do you figure no-lifers will burn out in a month? P99 Green had so many no-lifers, and they kept going and going and going like the Energizer bunny. Level 60 was just the starting point for a lot of them.

Incantus

Defectui Lvl 50 is 50% of the xp needed to 60, so yeah.

Fell

Nazgrimn If you feel you're leveling too fast, take a break.

It's not about feelings. It's about the fact that, for the immediate future, level 60 is a brick wall beyond which further progress is impossible. You can fill in a few missing items, you can work on trade skills, you can twink -- but without real endgame content, you're done.

This isn't about those who are 40 today, this is about the majority of the player base who, in 3 months time will be out of content. Telling them "just start a twink and do it all over again" isn't a great answer.

Fell

Incantus Lvl 50 is 50% of the xp needed to 60, so yeah.

His claim was that level 50 was only 1/3 the way to 60, instead of the 50% it actually is.

I'll pose a final question to those of you who think leveling is just right. What do you value more: a character you spent a month building, or one you spent 3 months on?

ZenProtocol

Daytime Its EA. There is not tons of content at 60 yet. Plus, just relax, this a game, not a drug. Sloooowww doowwwn, smell the flowers, touch grass, etc.

Daytime

Fell

The soon-to-be 60's will give the devs even more incentive to push out content quicker.

Daytime

ZenProtocol

I've already slowed down to the point of stopping entirely. The XP rates are way too slow for me to enjoy the game. I'll continue to promote the game through word of mouth because I like pretty much everything about M&M except for the leveling rates and night vision issues.

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