Fighter Deep Dive Discussion!

yagrim

I question the decision to move to "spell lines", for a caster, it makes sense on occasion to be able to use a low-level spell, like having multiple heals with different mana costs.
But in a Fighter, where the cost is the same cooldown, and the same skill cannot be used in the bar because they will share the cooldown, this is simply a tedious money sink. And this is more egregious when the skills themselves scale between certain lvl ranges. Not to mention the clutter in the skill book.
I don't mind some money-sink mechanics, but the method could be reconsidered to something that doesn't feel artificial. Maybe the trainer should lvl-up the skills directly in a different menu, or skills could be capped to a passive skill that needs to be trained with money 🤷

dorrito

I'm a young fighter (26) but hear me out. To solve this vengeance problem, make it more stance appropriate. Offensive stance should generate vengeance with a chance on a weapon hit, defensive stance should generate vengeance upon being hit, and tactician stance should have weapon hit and being hit to create an incentive to use this stance outside of its niche use as you are being a tactical fighter.

KillaCam

I do think that having vengeance tracked in a resource bar attached to the player health bar would be a huge qol improvement so we don't have to parse everything in our buff bar to keep track of it.

There's a bit of disparity I'm sure others have noticed, but you actually need TWO stacks of vengeance to cast Frenzy, not one like the tooltip alleges.

Timotron

Wait... How is Vengence being generated right now? A random chance on taking damage... or something like that?

The new kit already read badly to my eyes as it pigeon holed fighters into only being tanks which now sets off issues with the other tanks. If fighters are the only have to tank role to be in a group due to class mechanics then they have to be by default the best tank also, which means shadowknights and paladins are now what... off tanks?

Rather than bad mouthing the devs, I will offer some suggestions...

If vengence stays random... make a successful taunt grant 1 vengence stack so there is a component that is predictable.
Change( or add) to Berserker stance, AC values halved but now generates vengence on melee hits. To fix Fighters being the one true, lonely and only tank syndrome.

QuestionableWaffle

Having vengeance be a "Chance on being Hit" type proc leads to a few issues directly and then even more indirectly. Issues I saw last night with it are that if I don't get HIT I don't have a chance at gaining a stack of vengeance. I was going through multiple fights last night with 0 stacks generated

Rend is not resetting Shield bash (Rank 5 tested) (Works on Cleave (Rank 4 tested), Feint (Rank 4 tested), Frenzy (Rank 5 tested))

Juggernaut continues the charge issues, LoS, steep incline / decline, distance (too close / too far + Netcode)

Frenzy is having some random issues where, even with stacks, the ability fails to fire (but still consumes the stacks?). I couldn't figure out a solid reason for it's behaviour.

Second Wind isn't scaling correctly, at 55 it was healing for 16 a tick (should have been around 45-50).

Sideline:

Will Armor Break, the Damage reduction shout (maybe even Feint?) ever come with a threat component?

Seems so strange having these debuffs NOT have any component of threat when Shaman / Enc "Weakness" line has a TON of threat.

Rodyrus

47 fighter
Last night while fighting giants, i didn't generate a single point of vengeance in defensive stance at all. After about 45 min of not being able to generate any, i removed all abilities from my bar that required vengeance use. Shield slam for what ever reason was not stopping any spell casting. I still used it for the dmg and agro gen, but had to replace another ability with kick just so that I could stop mobs from gating / fearing / healing. I really like where this class is going now and the new abilities that I have been able to try. Vanguard was a godsend since I group with a bst who never turns taunt off on his pets lol.

Only thing I would ask is the same thing I've been asking for, is a riposte ability / discipline. It has passive side you can train at a trainer to turn a parry into a damaging attack, and ability that you can use once every 30 min for 20 sec to riposte all inc melee attacks back at the attacker. This would be a good thing for named / bosses type scenario.

Jeembo

Rodyrus People were saying you have to switch stances to start generating vengeance

aerah

Rodyrus Every time you zone cycle your stances.

Raikami

So, currently I am enjoying the lion share of our rework. This being said, I have a couple of small points that have nothing to do with mitigation or the like.. more side things. Apologies if others have brought this up as well.

First: Charge (the early one) feels rather uh.. useless, outside of PvP. I know runners and all that.. just feels generally rather unimportant in the scope of our limited actions sets. Perhaps far higher level Fighters can disagree or offer another point of thought on it. I know we get a new one later, Juggernaut that seems good; good enough remains to be seen.

Second: Stances and Vengeance. Now, to be clear.. defensive? Perfect, I like where it is at. Offense? Strong, however I have a small note on this; while it isn't COMMON.. there are times where perhaps you are not the primary tank, or moments where you aren't being struck.. at these times few as they may be, you are gaining no Vengeance. This is a problem, and I'd like to think that perhaps some kind of Offensive Vengeance gain may be welcome for Offense Stance, I'm not convinced auto generation is the answer though. I think something off abilities giving Vengeance may be better in lieu of being struck. No idea on Tactician though, likely fine the way it is or could be a variant of both combined? EDITED: As an additional note.. it may be good to add some sort of guaranteed Vengeance gain to something in Defensive too if the proc for gaining Vengeance stays rather.. inconsistent. After all, giving us a mechanic that helps us and it ends up a hindrance is no good at all. As a rudimentary thought; maybe Rend proc resetting something could give a Vengeance point to every stance? Could be too strong, but eh. So napkin math.. every five rends you get a guaranteed Vengeance, it's something at least.

Third: Distracting Shout sharing the timer with my other shouts? I cannot disagree more. It has an incredibly steep CD, and I have no issues with that whatsoever; but if I choose to use this as a life or death situation.. I am then denied Battle Cry and Unnerving. Thus making me and by extension my party weaker for the next 600s. It may be best to make it it's own timer.. otherwise I can see quite a few Fighter's simply.. never using it. Which is no good.

Four: This is something I've seen in areas in forums already, but I'd welcome other conversations it and I certainly will continue to add to my stuff as time goes. True Retaliation skills. It may just be something as simple as Riposte after a block give me 10-15s to use this skill and it goes something especially potent in terms of debuffing or off-balancing and threat gen. I do not think it should be a high damage skill though, supplement with some good utility built in seems best.

Final Point: Berserking. I am sure I may get flamed a bit by EQ people.. but I'm not an EQ guy so eh. I've seen it mentioned here and there and I'm not convinced it is a fun idea. Berserking. I do understand this from a hypothetical damage dealer approach, let your DPS Fighter stay at 30% and just crush things, neat. From a Tank perspective? I just find the idea repugnant. I think Berserking should come with a negative as well. Defense loss. Yes, you become a variable bloodlusting machine of death, you have thrown aside defense for this gain. You should take more straight up raw damage from it, like 20-25%.

I know what you're saying the second you read this. (What if I hit Berserk due to a difficult fight and just happens?) My answer to that is Stances, Defensive stance could perhaps mitigate Berserk should perhaps be something available to Offense and Tactician and not Defense. This is a crude thought as I haven't put too much thought into it.. just crap at a fan for the direct moment. I just know the idea of Berserk tanking doesn't sound fun and I suspect it draws needless metagaming where we do not need it.. it also means a healer with no real bubbles doesn't really help a fighter much if that is how we wanted to play.

Anyway, lots there. I'd welcome any addendums and thoughts. Just want to see even more cool Fighter stuff.

Aisthetikos

Raikami

Hmmm...I may be taking too many liberties with this kind of post. community feedback can help or hurt, and at the end of the day it's the devs vision coming to life. I believe in their desire to capture meaningful roles and abilities that are unique to each class...

Relatively new to this type of MMO, and have a lvl 20 fighter. I only tried it solo so far. Having to make choices in response to RNG was a light value add. Vengeance is more of a garnish and not a cornerstone and can remain that way, but needs a look.

Certain abilities granting stacks might give the devs more control over its impact? A predictable tool that can be planned for, drive versatility, and easier to tune?

Perhaps certain stances change what skills grant a stack, and that switching weapons or stances removes them? This would encourage filing the role, serving the need by choice, and not being an all rounder in each stance.

Normalize the base stance and ability toolkit by role and purpose, and have vengeance remain the salt to lift the role and make it shine.

Main tank? Defensive stance, fill the role of managing threat and taking mob dmg, great at taking hits, lower dps output, moderate debuffs to reduce incoming damage, and vengeance skills more attractive to have on bar (applies to all stances)

Off tank? Tactician stance, fill the role of threat transitions off of dps and heals, great at padding members life/defense, disabling mobs (slows, disarm etc)

Off DPS? Offensive stance, fill the role of helping DPS, takes more damage, debuff mobs to take more damage, etc...

Maybe battle cry as stance based? Defense grants strength. Tactical grants agility. Offense grants dexterity. (Lost when stance switching.)

Melee only tanks always seem to have an identity crisis... and honoring the diversity and depth is tricky. Each persona having a clear role and encounter impact mapped on a matrix, with school lock outs, and avoiding toxic pairing would be interesting to see.

FriendMiles

What if, as a way to add a little more consistency to vengeance and give limited access to non tanking fighters, there was a short duration buff ally ability that would redirect the next hit received by the target to the fighter and guarantee the caster one stack of vengeance. Put it on a decent cool down so tank fighters are still getting the intended damage increase instead of dps fighters. Could be called "get behind me!" Or something

Arkamedeez

QuestionableWaffle Having vengeance be a "Chance on being Hit" type proc leads to a few issues directly and then even more indirectly. Issues I saw last night with it are that if I don't get HIT I don't have a chance at gaining a stack of vengeance. I was going through multiple fights last night with 0 stacks generated

People have already stated that you have to cycle your stances in order for Vengeance to start working once you load your character or change zones.

But you do not have to be hit in order to gain Vengeance stacks. You can also gain stacks on misses. Tested by me against level 1 MOBs. Multiple stacks gained when the combat log showed a miss.

Xyshina

I think the feedback here is clear. Vengeance is cool but just needs tweaking and some bugs worked out and we need a way to gain vengeance while not being the main tank. It’s fine if it’s less buildup than main tanking but having 0 access to it as a dps or OT is not fun. Its going to make raiding as a fighter when you aren’t tanking feel even worse.

Also, cleave cooldown is too long for the damage it deals. It’s already restricted by vengeance stacks, does it need to be that long? With the current CD it’s better to just CC the adds than try to cleave them down.

Coca

Died to green with those new changes 🙂 Whole fight I couldnt use frenzy and DPS was really bad.

Greavs

FTR needs more consistent stack building via offensive stance with stack generation using dual wield/2h skills since to use a skill like cleave u have to 2h anyways. its a build stacks and spend them system like wow rogue but weirdly inconsistent.
-For tanking block/dodge in the tank stance giving stacks so stacking agil and using shield block skill is an active way to build them. the stacking system is so weird ppl are theorizing that avoiding agil and getting hit is the new ftr tank strat which is opposite the norm lol. it just doesnt look fully cooked. i know its suppose to be retaliatory but its not serving vengeance whatsoever. just rng but in a frowny face way.
-Let the fighters use frenzy! whats the harm let em have fun. baldnfat said he dueled a bunch on the pvp side and some ppl say theyre tanking heaps of mobs and it tanking forever to get a single vengeance ability off. which is like the whole point. Second wind and cleave as a tank def feel like things ide wanna press at least once per pull.
-The diff fighting styles depending on weps equipped is a sick concept. Great fighters come prepared with their arsenal of wep types depending on the situation. amazing concept to have a versatile class. the veteran tactician rp is great and pumps me up. This will be my main for EA and i'm praying we get the tweaks we need to be a fun class.
-Rng stacks on an iconic archetyp like a fighter conflict. We like to keep it simple around here. We didnt become seasoned veteran combatants through rng on the battlefield. That intentional build up of stacks of vengeance is ideal.

Men only want 1 thing and its ~~disgusting~~ to press Frenzy/Cleave

Xyshina

Doing more testing last night.
28 FTR - full group farm on humanoids outside grain cellar.

I was going full fights without a vengeance proc or sometimes x1. This felt really bad. We tried the red cons inside GC, and same issue. Sometimes I’d get x5 near the end of the fight and finally get to use my vengeance.

Vengeance isn’t interesting when you aren’t gaining it. What makes it interesting is weighing what ability you are going to burn the stacks on.

As it stands it’s just locking me out from using abilities rather than any meaningful gameplay. The proc chance needs to be increased a ton.

Have the heal ability scale the regen based on vengeance stacked. That makes it more meaningful to weigh whether to use it for dmg or sustain.

Give fighters a buff when they reach max vengeance so they also have to weigh whether to burn it or retain it.

Feint and frenzy on the same CD doesn’t feel good at all. I can have 0 stacks of veng and hit feint then have maybe one stack of veng by the time the CDs are back up. Now I’m weighing do I risk my dps to not hit feint because I might get some more veng? A lot of times trying this I’d sit at 1 veng and never get to two to hit frenzy or veng falls off. It’s not interesting or fun gameplay. Theres already a resource cost to frenzy, why tie it to another CD?

Veng stacks also don’t last long enough. For the low proc rate they fall off way too fast. Increase proc rate or increase the fall off time. Something has to give here.

KillaCam

Yeah, vengeance just doesn't come in fast enough in the current state. Maybe if we were tanking multiple mobs at once, but that's not the game.

Tibs

Vengeance mechanic for Fighter in BlackTide Bay

Main tank Fighter at the level 20:
The purpose was main tank (myself) testing out defensive stance with a shield.
It appears that Vengeance does not build a stack off of Dodge, Parry, or Block and only has a chance to build a stack when taking a certain level of damage. Green NPCs did not trigger a stack of vengeance from what I could test because my AC was to high to allow damage for triggering stacks.

I understand there are a lot of variables that go into how the developers want stacks to build but I feel that it also needs to trigger off good defensive gameplay of Block, Parry, and Dodge while in Defensive stance.

Off tank Fighter (Guild member) at level 19 in offensive stance:
The off tank was not able to trigger stacks of vengeance in a way that profited good gameplay.
I understand this might not be optimal to have two Fighters in a group but the mechanic of vengeance triggering on being damaged prevents the player from using Frenzy and other vengeance spending skills.

My recommendation is that while the fighter is in offensive stance they would be able to trigger vengeance from their off hand weapon striking the target.

Overall I love the changes and feel this is the right direction for Fighter in the long run but it still needs to smooth out a few mechanics to make it work better in group gameplay, imho.

Please note: that if the player is able to build the stacks in a more controlled and consistent manner than the timer on vengeance will not matter as much overall.

Final thought: The reset on Rend became pointless for Frenzy because neither one of us were able to use vengeance often enough for secondary mechanics to be impactful.

Thanks and happy hunting!

Chex

I'm loving the changes. The old fighter felt very functional but flat. This is a great change. Once you expand out the animations to give it some more flair you will truly have something special in the works.

Keep up the great work.

kloqqa

It's cool that vengeance is built from taking dmg, but it would be a lot more fun to have it be actively built as well. Giving a short-cooldown ability to generate vengeance on demand would be good for tanks and offtank/dps. Could also play into stacking up vengeance to make abilities perform stronger when you have more of it. Having a couple minigames to actively manage to get the most out of the class is way more fun than staring waiting for stacks for proc.

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