Pet classes replacing Tank classes

Zawi

An easy fix could be to make mobs always prioritize players over pets, as in always turn on whichever melee in range has the most aggro. This would allow for these pets to still be as strong in solo play, but force groups to use a proper tank.

Fell

PhantomGhost (I am BST but if I sit to regen mana, I don't do DPS... Main reason I disliked the setup).

In other words, the "inefficiency" wasn't the lack of a tank, but that you're a class that melees, leaving you little time to med. That problem is compounded by the "zero-downtime" chain-pulling hack-and-slash that the deep dives worsened.

As for needing mana to heal, most of the healing in my group was being done via mage bandages, during and post fight. You can't heal a single tank with bandages -- but when aggro is swapping between 3-4 pets, that means 3-4x the bandage healing.

PhantomGhost Having to let pets build agro because taking agro from them could be deadly without a healer

You don't need to let pets "build" aggro. You wait until one single pet gets off a taunt, period. Taunt is MAX_AGGRO+1. In a multi-pet group, that's usually within the first couple seconds of engagement. And if you rip aggro, you're not going to die -- not as long as you can root or kite. If you're in a dungeon fighting yellow and reds, the situation is a bit different, but not anywhere else.

What makes this comment ironic is that, even in a group with a tank, you should be required to let the tank build aggro. But the game deprecates aggro management, and every dps class believes it should start damage within 3 microseconds of the mob being engaged.

Mesh

Metavahn
Why is this an issue? Having a pet that is capable of tanking or off-tanking in a pinch is (and should be) one of the benefits of playing a pet class.

If players choose to try farming with weird off-meta groups like all pet classes, why shouldn't they be allowed to? This type of experimentation and the lack of rigidly enforced gameplay is precisely the type of thing that makes these classic MMO's fun.

As long as a decently geared player tank is the superior choice, which it clearly is, I don't see the problem.

Fell

Mesh Why is this an issue?

Because a tank's primary role is tanking, whereas the role of a pet class is DAMAGE. If a pet class replaces a tank, then there is zero reason for any group to ever select a fighter, SK, or Paladin, because they can fill that tank role AND get more damage from another class.

Mesh If players choose to try farming with weird off-meta groups like all pet classes, why shouldn't they be allowed to?

I wholly agree that "weird meta-groups" should exist -- but that they should require unconventional tactics, be limited to certain situations, and never as efficient as an ordinary group. In early EQ, for instance, (gasp! Yes, I said it), pet tanks required chain-rooting to hold aggro, pretty much obviating player melee, as well as a lot of extra healer mana leading to more downtime. Here that's not the case.

I'll give you a hard example: a six-archer group, probably the highest possible DPS group in the game. They can kill most anything lightning fast -- but they're limited to an area with a LOT of room to kite without drawing additional aggro. And unless they have someone to SoW them, they're limited on mobs that run slower than them as well. Some hard limits to go with that non-traditional group formation.

Mesh

Fell

Because a tank's primary role is tanking, whereas the role of a pet class is DAMAGE.

Pets being moderately capable tanks doesn't change this.

Pets require more healing, have much less utility (interrupts, taunt, etc.) and aggro management than a tank. They require specific, controlled use and are bad at reacting when something goes wrong. There are many disadvantages of pet tanking versus having a capable player tank.

I see no problem with a pet being able to fill in when needed. Just like I see Monks and Rangers being capable off-tanks as a class benefit, not a replacement that undermines true tanks.

Fell

Mesh Pets being moderately capable tanks doesn't change this.

Of course it does. It allows a group to replace a very low DPS class with much more damage with zero downside. I'm a pet class myself, and even I see the structural problem here. You're trying to argue against a well-needed nerf for your class.

Mesh Pets require more healing....

When an all-pet group can chain pull nonstop with any healer in the group -- and even near non-stop without even a priest -- that's not a drawback. Until or unless mobs hit a lot harder, there's far more healing than necessary in most groups.

...have much less utility (interrupts, taunt, etc.)

That only matters if that utility actually matters. Currently you don't need to interrupt a caster to easily win the fight. And you conveniently ignore the fact that pets DO taunt, and there are pet types that DO interrupt. So much for that argument.

Defectui

The current class design for Necro revolves around sacrificing 40% of player health in order to make this pet tanky. It comes with the offset that a bad pull, especially with an archer or wizard mob(s), can result in a sudden death. This is less of a danger in a full group but it certainly has an impact solo or in smaller groups (especially if you're pulling). It would be strange to leave these pacts in the game - or the current class design as is - while nerfing their effectiveness.

Fell

Defectui The current class design for Necro revolves around sacrificing 40% of player health in order to make this pet tanky. It comes with the offset that a bad pull, especially with an archer or wizard mob(s), can result in a sudden death.

Mage and BST pets get that tankiness by default. In any case, if a necro is pacting himself down to 50-60% health while fighting deep blue or higher cons, I'd suggest letting some other member of your group pull, or using your pet instead.

Mesh

Fell

And you conveniently ignore the fact that pets DO taunt, and there are pet types that DO interrupt. So much for that argument.

AFAIK The Elementalists air pet gets a 1s stun proc that is random. It is not a reliable interrupt.

No pet has taunt.

Of course it does. It allows a group to replace a very low DPS class with much more damage with zero downside.

This is false. There are plenty of downsides to pet tanking versus having an active player tank as I've already explained.

Skeezix

FOUR classes being outclassed by pets.

Tank quote from last night:
"Man, I feel so useless"

NWC, this really should be moved to the front burner. Please.

Cheers,
Skeezix

Defectui

Fell

I assume that all Necros are constantly fighting with 20% max health after level 12 and 40% after level 20. (The juggling of 35min timers is a PITA, but that's another topic.) The difference is night and day, and every Necro I've seen is using these pacts. Yes, it is not always ideal for a Necro to pull but the class also has snare, root, undead lull & mez, and FD so there is plenty in the toolkit that allows for pulling. But sometimes your pet gets rooted and a DoT resist (which happens fairly often) pulls aggro, and/or there are multiple mobs in camp and it can go sideways pretty fast.

BSTs are tankier themselves and do get durable pets. That seems to be their total utility at the moment, so nerfing that would be tragic for them. Elementalists do get their Earth pet but I can only think of a few circumstances where they would be using that instead of Air. They also do higher DPS and feel kind of one-note and half-baked as a class currently, so reducing their Earth pet also seems absurd.

Fell

Defectui But sometimes your pet gets rooted

That's why God invented the dispell magic spell. Or, as you say, if the pull "goes sideways fast", you sac your pet and FD.

Defectui BSTs are tankier themselves and do get durable pets.

When the highest DPS class in game can also fill the tank role as well as a tank -- that's a structural issue, whether or not you wish to admit it.

(Note: spellblades might possibly beat BSTs for total DPS. But a well-equipped beastmaster can solo mobs his own level, whereas a spellblade has trouble tanking a low green.)

Fidric

Mesh ele air pet has a pet bar small stun power with damage (staggering winds) that can either be left on autocast (what most do I imagine) or actively used manually.

Mesh

Skeezix
I can agree that some tuning might be needed to make tanks feel better in the early game before they have much in the way of gear.

Any reasonably well geared mid-late game tank that feels outclassed a pet tank is experiencing skill issues. Nerfing pets won't help this.

Fidric
Ah, good to know. Do you know if it still functions as an interrupt on stun immune mobs?

Fell

Mesh Any reasonably well geared mid-late game tank that feels outclassed a pet tank is experiencing skill issues.

Stuff and nonsense. Even in the 50s, pets can and do replace tanks. It doesn't matter how skilled or well-geared a tank is when a 3-4 pet group chain pull nonstop without ever running low on healer mana. If you can do that, then replacing one pet class with a tank just slows the group down.

Mesh

Fell
Replace "pet" with "Monk" or "Ranger" in your sentence and the same applies.

I look forward to your thread asking for all off-tanking tools to be removed from those classes.

Fell

Mesh Replace "pet" with "Monk" or "Ranger" in your sentence and the same applies.

The what-aboutism of pointing out one problem doesn't hide the other. Monks and Rangers in off-tank stance are too tanky, for sure. That doesn't change the fact that pets are as well. The deep dives in general were responsible for a literally shocking amount of class homogenization, of which rangers are probably the most glaring. Certainly rangers needed help, but instead of giving them identity, they just threw the kitchen sink at them: tanking ability, druid-level regen, group mana restoration, bard group run-song, curing poison and disease like a priest, Who in their right mind besides a ranger thinks this was a good idea?

Mesh

Fell
What you calling "homogenization" I call flexibility.

A competent player tank should always (and does) outperform any pet or off-tank. That much is true.

However, classes having the flexibility to fill in when no tank is available, run small groups or simply to experiment with fun group compositions is a good thing for the game IMO.

Fell

Mesh A competent player tank should always (and does) outperform any pet or off-tank. That much is true.

That much is false. Performance only matters if it benefits the group. Does it allow more damage or faster pulls? No. Does it reduce the risk of death? Not in any group with competent pet casters. A good tank might be a world-class comedian and entertain the party with light banter ... but that performance ain't helping the group experience any faster or safer.

Mesh What you calling "homogenization" I call flexibility.

It's mindless hack and slash. When groups have well-defined roles that people are required to fill, it requires at least a little in the way of group tactics and coordination. An all pet group is more like a chaotic gang street fight: when mobs show up, stick your pet on one and do exactly what you would solo. It might go marginally better if you all decide to pick the same mob at once, but no big deal if you don't.

Mesh

Fell
Guess we just disagree.

A competent group with a player tank, support, healer, etc. will always be safer than any group with a pet tanking.

Pets react very poorly to unexpected situations. They have one threat ability that has a flat value and no taunt. If Provoke is on cooldown when something unexpected occurs someone can easily before it's available again. They're terrible at holding more than one mob or hitting anything above white con. They mitigate far less than a decently geared player tank and soak up healer mana much faster. You're ignoring lots of disadvantages.

You're also comparing a single tank against a full group of pets which is an apples to oranges comparison.

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