Shaman Deep Dive!

Luda

Velthorian
This is the vibe I think we lots want to see in MnM and thought we were getting there (slowly) pre-nerf. We don't mind getting hit (while in chain) because we know we can slow, cripple, and out pace that dmg in a long, drawnout fight because we call on the endless spirit energies that suffuse our bodies.

Jat

[unknown] “They should have just straight nerfed regular consume, in a more modest way. Don't fuck with the cast time, recast, just make it a bit less efficient. If the concern is "it's not risky enough" the solution was just make it cost more HP, but don't mess with how much mana it returned or cast time”

This would have been it. Make it cost a little bit more hp. Make us have to heal ourselves more often. This still keeps the fun factor up at all times with the class. And we would put ourselves more at risk. But at least we can still heal ourselves. What we have now is not the answer.

Jat

I will say this again - the pre-nerf Shaman gameplay was absolutely OUTSTANDING. It was fun as hell! We did not have an “endless mana pool” whatsoever. I would run oom all the time. We just didn’t have to sit quite that often.

Instead of nerfing the Shaman gameplay and making a shell of the class, buff the other classes so they can have more fun too!

The game is already slow enough. I get what you guys are going for. But you have gone way too far with the changes to the Shaman. It is straight boring now. And you are not listening to us. You are finding other ways of doing the same which is nerfing the class to shit. If you don’t like this nerf, try that nerf. They are both dog shit.

I know what overpowered is. I have been playing games since I was 7 years old and I’m now 48. I have seen op shit my entire life. The Shaman was NOT op. It was a well balanced and executed class. Sure it could get better here and there, but you changed the entire dynamic of the class with one horrible change. Put it back, and give the other classes a little more mana so they can do more stuff too. It’s waaaaay more fun this way!

I’m reading about all the spreadsheets. Are these spreadsheets actually playing the game???! All they had to do was watch us shine as a well played Shaman. Why would you devs not want this? What are you trying to achieve? We are already playing a slow as hell game - you have successfully accomplished this. And yes, we all want this type of game. But you are going too far in this slowness. Make the other classes shine more.

The pre-nerf Shaman should be the class all other classes are balanced around. I firmly believe this. And then make the game a little harder if need be. Give us more tools, if executed properly, to achieve greatness. And if we don’t, we die.

Mesh

Jat

I will say this again - the pre-nerf Shaman gameplay was absolutely OUTSTANDING. It was fun as hell! We did not have an “endless mana pool” whatsoever.

As much as I agree that the Shaman needs more work, this is just objectively false.

Shaman was strong because it had effectively unlimited mana provided you used Consume on cooldown. The changes to WIS and heal scaling made outhealing the health consumed trivial.

Between recent changes to the AGI cap, healing being reduced on top of the Consume nerf we've had a huge swing in the other direction in a very short time. I think the class will need more tuning but also players need time to adjust to the intended new difficulty.

TexKSAH

Mesh Even if you accept the premise that Consume was a bit overpowered, reducing it's effectiveness by 70% was DRASTIC especially when they offered NOTHING to compensate. Now, after the massive nerf to Shamen with the deep dive, they FURTHER massively nerf Shaman by the buff and debuff nerfs. Who is affected the most by a massive, across the board nerf on buffs and debuffs? THE SO-CALLED BY MNM KINGS OF BUFFS AND DEBUFFS!!!! THE SHAMAN!!!!!

Growlron

Mesh I never had this experience. Not once did I have infinite mana. Even with Enchanter buff.

Jat

Mesh ok so I’m thinking you’re using a “1 pull in 1 pull out” everything is perfect in the world of M&M we have a full group with an enchanter to fix everything if things go south” criteria? Because I remember constantly trying to push the boundaries of this game doing harder shit with a not so perfect group and going oom constantly. And this is with 171 Wisdom. Most of the time I did not even have time to consume because I was doing so many other things to try and keep us alive and every second count. This is the gameplay I’m talking about. This is what makes this game fun (for me at least). Pushing the boundaries. We can’t push boundaries anymore. That’s a good thing?

We are now playing at the “let me cast one to three spells and that’s it so I can maintain my mana” level. And sit for 2-3 min. Ok back to full mana. Next pull. This is not fun me. And I’m reading tons and tons of posts in this forum that’s it’s not fun for them either.

Mesh

Jat

We can’t push boundaries anymore. That’s a good thing?

NWC Seems to think so.

The fact that you were able to "push the boundaries" with a subpar group and no support class is demonstrative of the problem. That was the result of overtuning.

The changes they're making are intended to slow down the pace of the game, make tanking and healing harder and cause down time.

I don't agree with all of the changes individually and I think more work needs to be done but I do agree with the overall objective of slowing down the pace of the game and making it worthwhile to stop, form good groups and gear up instead of just rushing to 60 as fast as possible.

wizard

Velthorian well it would have been fine if they were improving upon the classes but in the case of shaman they just made it shittier in pretty much every conceivable way lol

Mesh this is just objectively false

"infinite mana" is a myth perpetuated by people who don't even play the class. you did not have "infinite mana", you continually sustained your mana pool by sacrificing HP and GCDs but there was a tradeoff for doing it, it wasn't like you just got limitless mana for free, you had to trade off HP, GCDs to regain your HP, weigh how you were going to spend that mana.

kloqqa

Clerics are now able to do dmg for free pretty much while meditating next to mobs. Strike and sit back down: you lose 1 mana from meditate every time you stand up to strike, but will still get the divine dmg procs right? Probably should remove that since other healers can't do damage for free anymore (pets removed). We gotta keep the healers perfectly balanced after all...

Jat

Mesh The fact that you were able to "push the boundaries" with a subpar group and no support class is demonstrative of the problem. That was the result of overtuning.

We weren’t pushing the boundaries easily. You know how many times I’ve died and had to make the run back from NH to 3 zones away? Pushing the boundaries didn’t mean we shouldn’t be rewarded for taking huge risks. Since we were able to play harder and push our classes to the limits, we get nerfed?? That’s insane thinking.

And who said anything about rushing to 60??

Growlron

I just want to play my class and have fun with tradeskills and exploring. I dont need to rush to 60 or be OP. But they have ruined this class.

odz

I feel like if we're going with the kiss/curse design with regard to pact of consume, the healing reduction should ramp up over time rather than immediately turning me into a coughing baby that can't receive healing until monsters & memories 2 comes out.

Why can't we instead "ramp up" to the (hilariously overtuned) target number of 85%? Each cast of pact of consume could incur an additional healing reduction penalty, but if we don't cast it for 12/24/36 seconds or whatever then allow the healing reduction to drop off completely.

It prevents consuming endlessly to have an "infinite mana bar" because eventually you're going to be unhealable (could you imagine?) but allows managing risk vs reward in a way that's actually engaging and driven by player agency rather than outright debilitating. An 8 second cooldown is already taxing in terms of action economy, and allows for this to get going in the wrong direction VERY easily.

You could even use this "sickness" as a way to empower our offensive abilities, similar to druid seasons. Maybe after I consume x times my offensive spells are increased in potency for the duration of the sickness to give you another decision to make. "I've been spamming consume to get mana back, and I can spend some of that mana to deal substantial damage over the next 30/60 seconds, but if I continue to spend mana, I'll have to consume again, and I'll be unable to heal myself if I draw aggro with that damage"

To me it feels like the 2 minute debuff duration is simply a way to lock us into using a single consume spell, which I am all for, but it's limiting consuming pact from being as described above which would be actually good and fun to use rather than, "I am not sure I should ever fucking use this."

kloqqa

IMO the best way to solve consume is to make it give a debuff that nullify WIS's bonus on your self-healing. So when you decide to go into consume time, you can still self-heal and consume if the base ratios on the heal is better than the consume, but those ratios will never change wrt consume-self-heal cycling.

Much easier to balance for the early/lategame with the new WIS scaling, and we can still have our iconic playstyle. Also that allows the group synergy of other healers still being able to heal shamans at full potency after consuming.

Zorg

klok i stopped reading when i read the health portion of consume was irrelevant.

Putting yourself underneath 20% health standing next to a mob that now has low health agro and gives a little love tap to death was very relevant. So relevant at some tight camps it was a hard no-no.

Game is being balanced in a vacuum and it shows.

Zorg

Mesh no support class?

What is a support class if it is not the premier buffer/debuffer? Bard? Enchanter? Cos enchanters piss damage, so you can leave that one out.

That leaves Bard.

I need you to run me through that without resorting to shaman is a healer so cant be support.

What IS a support class?

Mesh

wizard

"infinite mana" is a myth

Not sure what game you've been playing. All healers have had effectively infinite mana since the WIS scaling update.

Mobs have been doing too little damage and heals have been overtuned. Consume just exacerbated the issue.

The game was never intended for groups to be able to chain pull for hours on end with no downtime and I'm glad they're trying to fix that, even if I don't agree with every individual change.

Luda

odz
I want to call this out as a pretty good idea and potentially a fun mechanic for a shm to play with. It could be accomplished a few ways...

Potential Mechanic details.:

A healing-received debuff (10%?) stacks after each cast, refreshing a 15sec "1 stack fall off" timer.
Debuff is capped 80%.
Each 12 seconds without pact use reduces the stack by 1 until clear.
A full 8 stacks would take 2 minutes to clear fully (just like today).

Maybe this is essentially the same thing but it would stop Shaman's from auto-consume macro'ing endlessly (old issue) and allow some flexibility in the low and middle for usage (which, I guess, is just like using the 40 second Consume with a penalty).

Kiss/curse isn't easy to balance around for sure.

odz

Luda

I agree it's not an easy thing to balance, but this way it restores some agency to the player in a way that's meaningfully engaging and introduces tuning mechanisms beyond flat hp/mana values.

wizard

Mesh Not sure what game you've been playing. All healers have had effectively infinite mana since the WIS scaling update.

wow medding as a concept exists too, all casters have infinite mana, better get rid of medding!!!!

what point do you even think you're making lmao let's just make every single thing about the game suck. """friction"""!

sucks these threads are always full of people who don't play the class and hate shaman and just want to see the class suck.

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