Wiz mana costs, mana regen, and reclaim magic

bigchimpin

Hello everyone. I have been playing wizard and enjoying the core of the class quite a bit however there are some major issues I have noticed about mana regen and scaling of spells.
First off, I am able to write this because I am currently sitting down, something we know all to well as wizards.
I could be wrong about some of these things but this is what I have noticed.

Wizard spells scale increasing damage and mana cost as you lvl until they cap before a new rank of the spell.
- I am not sure the exact numbers of increased mana per lvl, but I believe the mana increase for spells does not equal the damage you gain from the first lvl you got the spell. For example, if a spell does 20 damage at lvl 5 and costs 11 mana, thats 20/11. If it increases in damage by 1 and mana cost by 1 until you reach lvl 30 then thats a 1/1 ratio per lvl making the spell worse and worse comparative to the first time you get the spell.
Reclaim magic is a great idea, but in practice it suffers from scaling.
- It has a cast time. This causes me to 'miss' reclaiming when a mob is low in a group on many occasions.
- It does not scale with maximum mana, but rather by lvl. This means at higher INT lvls (buffed, gear, ect) reclaim magic does not do much.
- It is based on a mobs debuff, which is consumed by any wizard. In a group with 2 wizards without expert coordination, reclaim magic will not be used well and often one wizard will get more mana back than the other.
Arcane Invocation
- does not scale off max mana

Problem: Wizards run out of mana very fast and their methods of recovering mana are sub par
Considerations: If Wizards had theoretically infinite mana I think they would be too powerful in solo and group play because we can already kill a white mob using our entire mana bar solo.

Solution:

I think allowing the already existing mana recovery options to scale off of maximum mana, rather than a fixed amount, would help wizards scale with gear and with group buffs. This would incentivize grouping with certain compositions to buff wizard effectiveness.
If this is too powerful of a change, I think reducing the mana cost increase for a spell as you lvl vs the damage would help in keeping the spells effective as you lvl before your next rank.
To enable mana in a group rather than solo, you could add an aura for the wizard that restores a small amount of mana if someone else does magical damage to a target you have debuffed with Mark of Magic. This would not increase mana regeneration solo, but would help out considerably in a group and help strategy when considering composition of groups.
Make reclaim magic automatic when someone dies for half the amount, or cast able for the full amount.
Reduce spell base mana cost

I think any of these solutions should be considered but if too many are taken then Wizard could become too powerful. Unfortunately at the current state, I don't think it was intended for wizards to act 1/3 of the time in groups and sit for 2/3 of the time.
Thank you for considering

Raybane

bigchimpin Should be noted that this lack of scaling is an issue for all classes and I think it needs to be looked at for everyone to keep casters viable at end game.

WhiskyJack

Natural mana regen rates while standing or sitting to meditate seem fine to me so I definitely believe attacking the issue from an efficiency perspective is the best route.

Reducing mana cost significantly and increasing damage slightly would fix most of the wizard issues if you pair those adjustments with a reasonable % of total mana return on reclaim and arcane Invocation.

Tweak just those numbers until you hit the desired output of sustainable damage in an average group and ensure it plays out across all level ranges.

Mesh

A simple solution I've suggested before would be to just give Wizard a free ranged autoattack equivalent that enables standing meditation for 6s. Would allow you to keep contributing moderate DPS while "meditating" and spend mana strategically to burst. Then the whole Volley > Reclaim Magic loop could be scrapped.

Devs seem to be doing their best to get all of the class reworks roughed in before EA. Mana and DPS tuning will happen later.

CWB

WhiskyJack "Natural mana regen rates while standing or sitting to meditate seem fine to me"

You must be joking... Mana regen in MnM is horrible.
Even sitting with your meditate skill maxed for your level, its awful just like it was in EQ1. It takes forever to get back to full mana, and not just from full OOM either. And even just putting SoW on a group of players, costs way too much mana. But its not just the buffs, its all spells on all classes. In MnM every dang spell seems to take too large of a chunk out of the mana pool. My characters are lower levels though, but unless it gets much better at higher levels then my point stands. Mana regen and spell costs are awful in MnM, which sucks because most mana classes are really cool.

I do like your idea of reducing mana costs, but it needs to happen not just for wizards but for all mana classes for all spells. Ive rolled every class in game, and all my mana classes have the same issue. Its super easy to burn through mana even just buffing people, and takes way too long having to sit and get it back...even with meditate maxed.

Does anyone have some higher level characters that are mana based, does mana regen get any better later on??

Rivorn

Wizard mana is extremely fine and you have mana to cast spells on every mob forever.

Raybane

Mesh An easier fix would be to allow meditation while channeling the volley line.

Mesh

Raybane
Similar outcome but why force people to repeatedly press Volley instead of just turning it into a ranged autoattack that can be toggled on and off?

Wizard went from being one of the lowest APM, relaxed classes to comparatively spammy because of glyphs, Volley and Reclaim Magic. Make the sandwich great again!

WhiskyJack

CWB "You must be joking... Mana regen in MnM is horrible."

Not joking. I feel regen rates are fine. Go time yourself from OOM to full mana and tell me how long it actually takes. The problem is not how long it takes to get it back its how fast you spend it.

That being said I do think they need to make our "active" regeneration abilities % based of max instead of a fixed number so they scale better with gear/level.

CalBearGuy

WhiskyJack You’re either doubling-down on the troll aspect of the forums, or you haven’t experienced a Wizard beyond 30+.

For reference, it’s 7.5 minutes to regen from 0-100 at 60.

WhiskyJack

No I just think it is all relative to what you can accomplish before you go OOM so it makes more sense to address through efficiency and active regen abilities... Better stacking of the various class buffs included for group scenarios.

If you can kill 1 mob solo with your mana bar is 7.5 minutes to regen to full too long? I think so. What if it was 2 mobs, 4 mob, 12 mobs? 7.5 minutes starts to look reasonable.

To be clear I definitely think there is a problem. I just don't feel you have to supercharge natural mana regen to solve it.

CWB

WhiskyJack You are 100% wrong. And I dont need to time myself to know there is a serious issue with sitting regen rates, even with meditate maxed as Ive already explained. And as CalBearGuy said you are either trolling or you have not played a wizard past a certain level. He said it takes 7 and a half dang minutes to recover from OOM to full mana....7 and a half freekin minutes.... THAT sounds "just fine" to you? Really?.. And nobody is asking to "super charge natural mana regen" either. Its so bad now its not even funny, so a even a moderate change would be a big help.

I do agree with you though that you can burn through mana way too fast, Im with you totally on that. But you also dont seem to see the truth about regen also being a huge issue currently across all mana classes. The only possible class that might be slightly better, is enchanter with the mana regen buff and even then I bet you will still sit a long while waiting to regen mana. And no the solution isnt to have to run all around and find players with mana regen buffs, just to make up for the horrible and broken sitting/meditate mana regen rates. We shouldnt have to do any of that just to sling some spells.

WhiskyJack

My feeling and opinion based on playing my character into the 40s is that mana regen has been fine through out that process. It takes me just under 5 minutes to go from 0 to full mana with self-buffs only and I can solo multiple blue mobs with that mana bar. I feel that it is a reasonable amount of time to recover my mana to full, but I DO wish I could accomplish more with that mana.

Now you said it takes you "forever to get back to full" but I imagine it realistically takes you somewhere around 3 minutes. Maybe that feels too long to you and that's your prerogative to feel that way.

I am also not saying you should be forced to track down group buffs in order to play wizard solo. However, you have to acknowledge that this is a group game and whatever changes they make will be balanced with group play and it group play it is reasonable to assume that the wizard will have access to said mana regen buffs from various classes.

It is my hope that they adjust the rules and allow them to stack more beneficially with each other and our self regen abilities.

CWB

WhiskyJack The fact you are ok with having to spend almost 5 minutes to get your mana back from OOM is beyond insanity. I just timed my level 13 druids mana recovery time today from OOM, it was 4 and 1/2 minutes. So 4 and 1/2 minutes from full OOM doing absolutely nothing...so much "fun". My hope was at higher levels things got better, evidently not...great... Having to sit all the time for that long repeatedly doing nothing in any game simply because you have a mana bar, is ridiculous. It was ridiculous in EQ1, and its ridiculous in MnM. And anyone that disagrees is part of the problem, not the solution(Although at least you agree its currently too easy to burn through mana).

Sitting isnt fun, full stop.
And for all the "pro-sitters" out there that claim its a good thing for "mUh SoCiaL inTerActiOnz!"... Get a chat room, and you can chat all day. Or join an in game guild, and watch your chat window get constantly spammed 24/7 with guild chat, more "social interaction" then any sane human should ever want...enjoy! Everyone else wants to play the game, explore, kill things, loot things, and actually have fun...not sit doing nothing all the time as punishment for having a mana bar.

I LIKE this game, and have high hopes for it. Thats why I want the awful mana regen situation addressed. Once its fixed, it wont effect the awesome old school vibe of MnM. It will just make it so mana classes can actually sling spells as they should and not have to constantly be punished for it.

WhiskyJack

Take a breath bro lol.

CWB

WhiskyJack Haha. Well surely you can understand my concern and frustration. Ive spent way too many years, 1000s and 1000s of hours, having to make my characters sit in EQ1 on mana classes waiting for mana to regen. I dont want to see that horrible game design, happen to MnM. Monsters & Memories shows real promise with its old school vibe, which I normally love. I hate to say it but, not everything old school is good. Horrible mana regen forcing people to spend large parts of their game time sitting instead of playing, is 100% not good.

Ghostggs

So can't you just....not play a blue bar class?

CWB

Ghostggs Thats silly and not a solution for a broken game mechanic.

Taron

CWB

CWB having to make my characters sit in EQ1 on mana classes waiting for mana to regen. I dont want to see that horrible game design, happen to MnM

But that's exactly what the original core audience is here for. You want faster regen with no downtime and constant action? There's plenty of modern MMOs offering that. I want downtime, I want forced regular med breaks, I was promised these things in the FAQ when I started following this project years ago. This is the only game being made in the last few decades offering that.

If the devs followed your advice this game would end up as just another WoW clone with nostalgic trimmings. I hear a new version of WoW is coming out soon, maybe you'd enjoy that more? Seriously, if you hate sitting and downtime so much what even drew you to this game? Did you not read the stated design goals at any point?

I expect these devs to stick to their promise of a slow paced long-downtime classic era style game. It looks like they are going to, given even the last big patch they specifically said they nerfed heals for the purpose of forcing more downtime on groups:

Healing and mana management are central to group pacing and social play. Healers should feel rewarded for managing their mana well, and groups should benefit from playing smart to reduce unnecessary healing. Occasional pauses for healer mana:
* let casters catch up on regen,
* create natural social moments,
* and give players brief breaks without disrupting the group.
* We’ve consistently aimed for a somewhat slower, more deliberate pace than modern MMOs - something that makes dungeon camping feel dangerous without becoming non-stop action with no time to chat or eat that sandwich.

CWB

Taron Go ahead and copy and paste where I ever said I want no downtime at all. Oh thats right you cant, because you are making stuff up as you go. Typical "pro-sitting" crowd.

Modern WoW is trash, and I dont know about this new version of classic they are making either, Im not the biggest fan of Blizzard. The last thing I want is this gem of a game turning into freekin WoW. So save the goofy talk about turning this game into WoW. Right now the sitting all the time for any class with a blue bar, seems excessive. I melee on my casters maybe even more than I cast spells, because I dont want to very easily burn up mana and be forced to sit....again. And now with yet another "awesome" nerf in game, this time to heals, the mana situation will be even worse.

I just watched a video from a youtuber named Pennyloafer I think was her name. She was on a druid trying to heal a group, and she was constantly low on mana...even trying to be careful not to burn through it. She was holding back the group basically. It wasnt really a good time from what she explained because of the mana deal.

Again as Ive said before mana regen sucks, all they need to do is make the meditate skill work a LITTLE better. That way there is not so much downtime. Especially with how insanely costly spells are, and now heals too.