Are Shaman even shaman now?

Growlron

Mesh I dont even need the pet to be a combat pet.

This was my suggestion https://forum.monstersandmemories.com/d/554-shaman-re-rework

But, I do truly, believe that a number of key devs in NWC really do hate the shaman.

If the enchanter doesnt get a mild nerf in their deep dive, thats kinda it for me. I will never believe otherwise. Too much of the shaman deep dive was a dud and the class write up was not fulfilled.

At MINIMUM, enchanter should lose their STR buff line. But there haste should get toned down as well. Based on what the shaman class design said.

Has the strongest physical buff suite in the roster, capable of enhancing strength, speed, and endurance

Right now enchanter and shaman both buff STR to 20. Enc haste is 55% to shamans 45%. Shaman can buff stamina and enc cant. So realistically that makes them about even, with tradeoffs either way. For shaman to be the #1 physical buffer, they need to nerf the enchanters phys buffs, if they arent going to increase shamans.

and it doesnt make sense for enchanter to have a STR buff. and to be honest haste also does not make sense.

The Enchanter is a master of mental influence .... the Enchanter's focus on mental influence and control

If you were to control someones mind, you could make them believe they are weaker then they are, they are slower, they cant move, confuse them into thinking an ally is an enemy. You could influence their behavior. you could increase or decrease their intelligence or wisdom. But mind control cant make someone magically stronger or faster.

It makes sense for enc to buff Charisma, Int, and Wis. All the debuffs make sense. Charm makes sense. Remove STR and Haste. That atleast gives shaman more identity.

Fell

@TexKSAH Again: DO THE MATH. Shaman slow went from 250 to 110 mana. If the mob dies in one minute or less, you have a huge savings in mana. That's 98% of all mobs if you're grouping -- a huge BENEFIT for grouping shamans. If the mob dies in 2 minutes or less, which is most mobs when duoing or soloing, and 99.9% of all mobs when grouping, then you STILL SAVE MANA. This is a "nerf" only for the small number of mobs that 3+ minutes to kill.

@Growlron, This enchanter agrees with you. Shaman haste should match enchanter haste (it probably WILL after the ENC rework) and ENC strength will also likely be nerfed or removed entirely. It is part of the class vision that shamans have the best physical buffs.

TexKSAH

Fell Again, you are wrong on the mana. The reduction in mana was LESS THAN HALF directly from the patch notes, so if it is 110 mana now, it was less than 220 before. DIRECTLY from the patch notes, mana reduction for slow spells is almost half of what it was, not 65% less than it was like you keep suggesting.

That is a NERF, PERIOD. It maybe in some circomstances with a very efficeint group, you only have to cast once and your better overall. But in many circumstances and in MOST SOLO encounters with the loss of DPS from pet and DOT stacking, you are going to be casting slow 3-4 times! So, you can continue to misrepresent the mana reduction and continue to selectively state "situations" where it might be better, but it is STILL A NERF!

Mesh

Growlron
There's a lot of overlap between supports and Shaman but I still say that's a Shaman problem, not a support problem.

Shaman design encroaches onto support territory, not the other way around. As I've mentioned before, removing key support tools like slow or haste from the dedicated supports would make Shaman a mandatory pick in every group which would be bad for the game.

I would prefer to see improvements to Shaman rather than taking things away from other classes.

Fell

TexKSAH If you're going to ignore math and quote patch notes, here ya go -- straight from the notes:

"At higher ranks, [slow] duration was longer than required to kill the NPC you'd slowed. This meant you were spending extra mana for a debuff that lasted longer than most fights....."

You got an enhancement and you just refuse to accept it. Oh, and this is too:

"- Shamans also get a rank 5 of the spell, which now lasts 90 seconds.
- This is not intended to make the spell weaker - this is to lower the mana cost to make it easier to debuff multiple enemies for a more effective duration."

Meanwhile, poor enchanters have to limp by with a slow that only lasts 60 seconds, AND is 20% less effective.

I also question if you've ever grouped f you believe it takes a super-efficient group to kill a mob in less than 60 seconds. In many extremely-high dps groups I've had, mobs were dying <15 seconds, sometimes less than 10s.

TexKSAH

Fell Ok, so at higher levels (50+), it's better. And I guess when I hit 60 and get rank 5, all will be fine. Thanks. Again, you are using selective situations and ignoring the overall. Good job.

Fell

TexKSAH At ANY level if your group is taking more than a minute to kill most mobs, you're doing something wrong. Did you forget to add any DPS classes?

TexKSAH

Fell That is not the issue. Grouping maybe perfectly fine with the slow NERF. But it is still a NERF and does affect the Shaman, even if when soloing only. But I have had MANY Boss mobs that took WAY longer than 2 minutes to kill, so even in a group, it will have ramifications. You are choosing to ignore that....

Fell

TexKSAH Honestly, this is getting ridiculous. The slow change is an enhancement: I love the lower mana cost myself. In any normal group, even bosses will die in < two minutes, and even if not -- who cares? Boss fights are a small fraction of your total. If your groups are somehow weak enough where you must cast that third time when the named finally spawns, it doesn't impact your overall mana budget.

Total unrelated trivia question: the longest boss fight I had in MnM took exactly 71 minutes to kill, with heavy dps being applied the entire time. I'll give a cookie to anyone who can name the mob (no pts for those who were there).

Growlron

Mesh Thats not true at all.

If Enchanter did not have STR and Haste, they would still have the hands down best crowd control in the game.

They have mana regen and strong magic related buffs. They have debuffs equal or better to shaman.

And with less overlap with shaman, having Enchanter Shaman is more desirable depending on party make up.

And its not about what I want, it is about what the devs have stated are the visions for the classes. Shaman is supposed to have the best physical buffs of any class. Enchanter is about control and mental influence.

It is what it is.

Fell

@"Growlron, you can't give just one single class in the game the ability to slow mobs. And while enchanters do have the best CC in the game, the fact remains that 80% of camps (and probably 95% of the best exp camps) don't require crowd control beyond the occasional root.

ENC slow is already 20% less effective than shaman, which means every major encounter in the game will absolutely require a shaman. Will every such encounter require a Paladin? An Archer? A Spellblade?

Growlron

Fell AT WHAT POINT DID I EVER SAY TO REMOVE SLOW FROM THE ENCHANTER???????

QUOTE IT OR SCREENSHOT IT.. ILL WAIT

SPOILER ALERT.. Not only have I never said that, I have repeatedly on numerous posts defended why it makes SENSE for the enchanter to have a slow debuff.

Stop lying. Stop making stuff up.

Receipts.

Growlron If you were to control someones mind, you could make them believe they are weaker then they are, they are slower, they cant move, confuse them into thinking an ally is an enemy. You could influence their behavior. you could increase or decrease their intelligence or wisdom. But mind control cant make someone magically stronger or faster.

It makes sense for enc to buff Charisma, Int, and Wis. All the debuffs make sense. Charm makes sense. Remove STR and Haste. That atleast gives shaman more identity.

Ocellus

Well if nothing else, I generated lively discussion. And since several of you just had to jump on the "this isn't EQ" train, my response is "no shit, now bring something intelligent to the table like others (e.g., Fell) did." 😜

A spirit healer with no access to a spirit whatever just seems silly to me. It would be like a ranger without a bow or a fighter without a taunt. My opinion. 😁

Growlron

Ocellus RIGHT???

How do you tell us, that shaman are Spirit Callers.. who cant call spirits?

How do you tell us you are going to lean into spirit theming and then remove the SPIRIT pet?

Where is the spirit in the spirit class?

Waffle_Goblin

Growlron I am under the reasonable assumption that they will be handled in the second or third class pass.

Fell

@Growlron

How do you tell us you are going to lean into spirit theming and then remove the SPIRIT pet?

You're the only one calling it a spirit pet. Devs said from Day 1 than shaman will NOT HAVE PETS. It's right there on the class description archetype:

" ...Manifests spirit animals as expressions of ancestral force in their spells, but not as pets....

https://monstersandmemories.com/class-shaman

Time to move on.

Fell

@Growlron

AT WHAT POINT DID I EVER SAY TO REMOVE SLOW FROM THE ENCHANTER???????

When did I say you did? I merely pointed out that SHA slow is 20% more effective than ENC slow, and is hands down by far the best debuff in game. A simple fact that seems to enrage you.

You did, however, say that ENC should either lose haste or have it nerfed.

@Ocellus I agree this whole "spirit system" is lacking and the shaman implementation is a bit muddled. I would hope devs still have something in the cards for shaman that is a bit more class defining than slow and canni.

Mesh

I'm wondering if maybe the spirit manifestation mechanic might be something obtainable in-game that people just haven't discovered yet?

Seems like a pretty obvious oversight if it's completely absent.

Growlron

Fell No. Again with the lies and false information. Why do you persist in just straight lying???

Fell You're the only one calling it a spirit pet.

THE ENTIRE PET SUMMON SPELL LINE IS CALLED " Wolf Spirit Pet" The spell line that NWC created.

On the deep dive ( that NWC wrote) Under removed spells "Spirit Wolf and Summon Companion"

Fell Devs said from Day 1 than shaman will NOT HAVE PETS.

On day 1 they were not against the pet. 2.7 years ago, the wolf SPIRIT pet was created.

From UPDATE 39 Jan 2024. "Added Ability Line: Wolf Spirit Pet (Tiers 1-8)"

Then 1 month after their lead class designer left, on Day 2065 they decided shaman wasn't going to have a pet.

EVIDENCE AND RECEIPTS
https://monstersandmemories.miraheze.org/wiki/Wolf_Spirit_Pet_Tier_1
https://monstersandmemories.com/class-shaman-deep-dive
https://monstersandmemories.com/updates/update-39-january-2024

Fell

@Growlron

Again with the lies and false information. Why do you persist in just straight lying???
1 month after their lead class designer left, on Day 2065 they decided shaman wasn't going to have a pet.

Again, this has been on their website as defining traits for shaman for a long time:

- Manifests spirit animals as expressions of ancestral force in their spells, but not as pets"

You're better off arguing these areas, for which you DO have a point:

- Damage is focused on persistent DoTs with limited direct damage options ...
- Has the strongest physical buff suite in the roster, capable of enhancing strength, speed, and endurance
- Has utilities tied to spiritual influence, including party escape and recovery tools

We have far too many pet classes in game already. You'd be better off arguing for druids to lose charm pets than you would to bring back that wolf.

Oh, and I notice that Jan 2024 update you're touting is ALSO the update that removed Swiftness from shaman. Yet you've repeatedly asked for it back, which cuts the heart of your argument that "since its been that way a long time, we should keep it"

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