Shaman is in a purty gud state

Taron

Fell Oh, and those who are implying that druids are now the most played class because of the deep-dive rework. Since Alpha, druids have -always- been tops on pop.

Actually by my metrics Druid is second-to-top right now, behind Elementalists. Oh but guess which class is #3 now, despite what people are saying in this topic? That's right, Shaman.

But yes, Druids have been #1 since forever, and I assume will return to that spot once the shiny newness of Elementalist rework wears off.

Growlron

Fell Literally all of us are arguing from a fun perspective. And as a Non-shaman, we dont really care about your perspective on the class.

WE, the shamans who actually play shaman, loved the "mindless routine" .. the high APM. We dont want slow and strategic, thats why we didnt play other classes.

WE, the shamans who actually play shaman, enjoyed the play style of the class, which has been gutted.

You know a REALLY good way to reduce the shamans "endless" mana and bring them more inline with the other healers.. WITHOUT SHITTING all over the shaman... literally reduce the mana gained by the original canni. LITERALLY just tweak the number.

Oh shaman has to much mana?? shave 25 off the canni and see if that does it..? Not enough shave more.. too much add a little back.. ACTUAL FUCKING BALANCING.. NOT GUTTING THE PLAY STYLE AND REMOVING THE SOUL FROM THE CLASS.

All you hear is what you want to hear because you dont like the class and want to see it smashed into the ground.

We dont care about balancing or being brought inline so we arent "OP" Thats great. Balance the classes.

WE CARE ABOUT THE PLAYSTYLE AND THE FUN AND THE SOUL BEING SET ON FIRE AND PISSED OUT.

Canni and Pet. Two of the defining hallmarks of the class ruined. And NOTHING substantive gained in exchange.

We are shittier druids. "BuT yOu ArE bEtTeR hEaLeRs ThEn DrUiD"

Not one shaman in the history of Shamandom, has ever complained about not being AS GOOD A HEALER as other classes.

Its not a competition. We dont give a shit if cleric or druid or pally or all of them are better healers. We enjoyed a certain play style and archetype of class.

Which we had for almost 4 years. It just needed a little tweak. Turn some dials on some values. Fluff up the pet in a meaningful way. Golden.

NOOOO, instead they took a flame thrower to the class. And left it in a state that is also NOT EVEN WHAT WAS ADVERTISED on the class write up.

Every other class got a deep dive that is virtually identical to the write up, with some minor omissions that were explained due to time or technical issue. Or in the case of pally, simply changing their minds on the vision. In some cases items that weren't implemented were marked for future release.

The shaman got none of that. Half the write up was just ignored and no explanation was provided. NOT EVEN AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT that they altered course or couldnt. NOTHING.

Why do we still have bear form? It was supposed to be removed. And not only was it NOT removed as promised.. THEY DOUBLED DOWN and are adding a class quest to earn it.

Where is the spirit focus? Where is the dot focus? Where are the animal spirits as manifestation of spells? Where is the parity from druid? What about lower overlap with druid utility?

Where is ANYTHING that was promised? Oh they renamed a few spells to be more spirit sounding... oh they removed the SPIRIT pet...

They added spell research and party escape... we arent wizards. Also party escape is druid utility.
They left in bear form.. we arent enchanters. Also animal forms is druid utility.
They removed 1 singular DD spell from us. And added no new dots or AoE dots. Druids have DoTs and DD also...

NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE STRENGTH OF THE CLASS. We are talking about the theme, identity, and FUN of the class.

Real MEANINGFUL change and identity is what we want. A Restoration of the FUN of the class.

Fell

@Growlron , If you're going to argue, argue honestly. You say you're not complaining about your relative strength vs a cleric, but yesterday, you said this:

"people take shaman in groups out of pity or desperation. Cleric is by far the best healer in the game. There is NOTHING the shaman has that is compelling enough to take a shaman over a cleric."

Class balance affects everyone -- so stop saying that "only shaman" can comment on shaman changes. You've made many posts advocating for enchanter changes, even going so far as to threaten to quit the game outright, if enchanters aren't nerfed in the class rework.

Worst of all, your biggest gripe is that devs aren't "following the class theme", yet you complain about the loss of the bear pet, when that theme literally states explicitly that shaman won't have a pet. You complain about loss of DD, when that class vision literally states explicitly your damage is based on DoTs, NOT DD. Oh, and guess what-- druids lost their pet also.

Let's face facts. For duoing/trioing, a shaman and druid are basically tied, depending on what class you're with -- with cleric running dead last. For a full group on easy grind content, shaman is #1, esp. if your group has no enchanter. For a full group on TOUGH content, only then does cleric finally comes in first.

Taron

Growlron I think the complaints about canni and pet removal and nerfs were so loud that that's all people are hearing from Shaman fans, and personally I'm in support of those changes and expected them for a long time, from even before the class description update.

But I do agree with your points that the rework deviated quite a bit from the write up with no real explanation given or clarification that they just didn't have time and it will come in a second pass. You're right about the lack of shift to spirit stuff and animal spirits and what not. That sounded interesting and unique from EQ Shaman and silence on it is disappointing. Frankly Jahaar seems to have gone silent in general compared to the dev doing the non-caster classes. Wizards haven't really stopped talking about being the worst class in the 1-15 range and barely better after until they hit 40 and haven't heard a peep in months from him. I hope there's another pass, maybe have the designers swap their respective classes to shore up the issues left by whomever did the first pass. I'd like to see the stuff in the class description happen for Shaman for sure.

That said, I don't agree with everything you've said and do think Shaman had things a little too good before (but not as much as Druids) and they remain the 3rd most popular class being played right now so I'm not sure they are as bad off as some of you imply. There are classes with literally 1/5th as many average daily active level 10+ players for them than Shaman players since the last patch, so Shaman clearly still have something going for them.

Growlron

Fell ARGUE HONESTLY... ahahahahaha ok bro.

They wrecked our mana economy with the canni change. Which effected how other players looked at the class's viability.

A change that ruined the fun of the class. They could have simply just turned the dial on the old canni and reduced the mana we got to balance it, instead of COMPLETELY ruining the class. I keep saying this and you keep just making shit up.. shamans are ok with BALANCING classes. Canni didnt need a full burn to the ground rework. it needs a dial turned. 10% less mana. 20% less mana.. i dunno.. turn the dial.

I already quit the game, the day they announced their anti pet agenda.

My comments about enchanter are DIRECTLY LINKED TO AND RELATED TO THE SHAMAN CLASS WRITE UP. If the enchanter is not designed in accordance with the shaman class write up, it is just one more thing they failed to hold to on that useless write up they ignored.

Only shaman can comment on shaman, because you fools DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. .. Great example. Shaman does NOT have a bear pet. We had a spirit wolf. Youd know that if you played a shaman.

I have never ONCE complained about the loss of DD. NOT ONCE. You cannot find a single post where I am upset that DD was taken away. I am upset because MORE DD was NOT taken away. REMOVE ALL THE DD. And give us MORE DoTs and AoE DoTs. Druids lost their permanent pet. They still have a pet. They can charm beasts.

Its like you dont even bother reading. Or you lack comprehension. I dont get it man.

CalBearGuy

Growlron Your complaining over the last week has made me annoyed with the settings within the forums, specifically that I don’t have the ability to mute/ignore specific people like we could on discord. I’ve now lost the ability to walk into class respective threads and see pros and cons without seeing you chirping about the Shaman-pocalyse.

Taking a step back from the game should also be combined with taking a breather from the forums. We’ve known since May or June that Shaman pets were going to be removed, just as Druid pets were. These kinds of changes don’t need to affect you on a personal level.

Growlron

CalBearGuy Fun fact.. not playing the game gives me a lot more time to keep up with the forums 😉

Ive literally been complaining about the removal of the pet since the day it was announced, I'm aware it was announced.

You know what else was announced.. removal of shapeshifting(which I applauded).. that didn't happen, in fact they doubled down by making it a class quest.. removal of druid utility overlap.. that not only didn't happen, the increased the overlap. "Manifests spirit animals as expressions of ancestral force in their spells" that didn't happen.

I'm not shocked they got rid of the pet. I'm shocked at the seemingly random pick and chose what to actually implement from the planned announcement. Something that did NOT happen with any other class.

Druid lost their permanent pet, but they still have beast charm. So they still have a pet.

I'm disappointed in the clearly anti shaman agenda of the devs and many of the non shaman players in the community. I'm angry I wasted 3.5 years supporting this game to have the classes I enjoyed absolutely dumpstered in the midnight hour.

Phlyn

CalBearGuy

Its hard to have civil discussions when someone is shouting the world is ending after every post. there is no amount of logic or data that has provided any indication of impacting their opinon.

I agree with you and frankly the amount of hostility towards both other members of the community and the devs just is unreasonable and while i have growl muted on discord it sucks that the place where the devs are focusing their attention for feedback is getting bullied post after post by a limited group of people.

I feel for people who are less active in the community, I wouldn't want to put up my opinion if i was level 15 but wanted to share something and this is the kind of responses other people get.

Phlyn

Growlron you realize you're the strongest antishaman voice right?

Ernst

Such a STRONG voice

Fell

@Growlron , Again, you're arguing dishonestly. And either you're also being dishonest when you claim you've "already quit the game permanently" or you're showing a rather disturbing personality trait by venting all over the forums on a game you're no longer part of. You literally advocate for enchanter nerfs, then tell non-shaman to, I quote directly "shut the fuck up" about shaman, and -- as you did above -- call anyone who disagrees with you a fool. Worse, your two biggest complaints literally contradict each other, that shamans lost their pet and that devs didn't follow their own published "class vision" -- what that class vision specifically says shaman won't have pets.

Shamans are the only class in game with an infinite mana pool, thanks to canny. They're the only priest that can massively boost a group's melee dmg. They're the only class that can reduce a mobs melee by HALF, and do that for a mere 110 mana ... and you whine because you might have to cast that spell again? Get real.

There are mobs in FW that output 500+ dps a second -- a few over 1,000 dps. Even using the lower figure, a shaman can save the group 15,000 damage every minute at the cost of only 110 mana. What other class can do that? None. Since the rework, shaman are the third most played class in the game, for good reason. They're an incredibly powerful, versatile class.

TexKSAH

Fell I have seen this argument many times before (maybe from you every time) but a 50% slow to AUTO ATTACK does not equate to a 50% reduction on overall DPS. So if your going to point out others for arguing dishonestly, you need to be honest yourself.

TexKSAH

In fact, just talking to others, Casters say maybe 2% of their overall DPS is Auto-Attack, some melee say upto 25-30% of their overall DPS is Auto-Attack. Pet classes say the same 25%-30% overall DPS is from Auto-attack. All classes say the remaining 70-98% of their overall DPS comes from spells or abilities. That jives pretty closely to Shaman #'s as well.

Does a melee attack speed slow affect cool downs on spells or abilities? NO.

I dont know the %'s for MOBs, but even if it was near the high end of what it is for players, you can guess that maybe 30% of the total DPS from a MELEE only mob is Auto-Attack DPS. Casting MOBS would be less.

A 50% slow to Auto-Attack at level 60 on a pure MELEE mob will then result in a overall 15% reduction in total DPS. That is not trivial, but it is a FAR CRY fom a 50% reduction. A caster mob, the overall DPS reduction from a 50% auto-attack speed slow would be less.

I'm not saying attack speed slows are useless, but they are NOT a 1 to 1 ratio in DPS reduction, not even close.

Ask any player, caster, melee, pet, etc where the majority of their DPS comes from. NOBODY will say Auto-Attack.

odz

lol

Qorsk

TexKSAH autoattack is the primary dmg source for melee and eles...heck for charm ench and druids too. Just saying 🍻

Fell

TexKSAH Don't be disingenuous. Mobs are not players. Half the mobs in game are melee mobs, and even caster mobs tend to do the majority of their damage as MELEE -- in fact, casters do all their dmg in melee if they're being interrupted and/or drained. This is doubly true for named mobs: if your tank dies to a tough named, it'll be because of its melee (excluding if they get nuked on incoming)

Half the classes in game can stop casters from casting or drain them outright -- but only ONE class -- the shaman can reduce melee damage by 50%. Stop trying to minimize it. A cleric beats shaman for healing burst dmg on large pulls -- but on nonstop healing on stead pulls of tough mobs -- shaman is #1.

Jat

Guys don’t forget mobs resist a lot. Especially named. So it’s not just 110 mana (or whatever it is). I start sweating after 2 resists lol. Especially since the tank is taking a beating since the mob isn’t slowed. And this was before the nerf. And now this happens every min? You don’t think that’s a bit much? And Shamans can’t maintain nearly as much mana anymore. Honestly, the devs just made it really tough.

I haven’t been playing much so wish I could give more feedback. But I also took a break after playing and not really enjoying the class after so much was taken away. I really tried but it just felt like work. I already work an extremely difficult 9-5, I didn’t want more work. And don’t get me wrong - the shaman prenerf was a lot of buttons. A lot. But it was fun buttons. It was fun work. Now it just feels like work work.

I really feel Growleon’s pain honestly. And I can tell he felt it. He felt what I felt. It was perfect. It was so good. The devs without even knowing built a nearly perfect class to play. It’s just unfortunate that that’s not the type of game they want. But guys like Growlron sure felt it. It just hurts now honestly. To have gone from that play style to this just sucks.

So. To not continue to beat a dead horse…

I will be giving the Shaman another chance in EA. And I haven’t played in about two weeks or more. And will not till EA. Maybe starting at lvl 1 and re-adapting to the new “poopier” Shaman will recalibrate all my old Shaman muscle memory and I’ll have fun again.

But the 35 min buff thing is just god aweful guys. Put it back to an hour please. Buffing everyone and their pets over and over and over again is just “work work”. 35 min honestly is no time at all. Once I’m done buffing, it feels like I have to buff again. Am I wrong about this?

I haven’t given the 1 min timer on slow much of a chance can anyone comment on this? Is it shit? It seems like it would be very annoying to have to re-apply over and over. More work work? Yah it makes the game harder. Is this good or just too much and exhausting?

And can you guys please stop fighting? I just had to read like 50 posts of fighting. Growlron is just sad that his class that he used to love is kinda in a weird place atm and not nearly (not even close) to as fun as it used to be. I know they said they would remove the pet a long time ago, but it still really sucks and stings. That was the one thing that we were all bracing for and were going to accept and move on. But they also added so much more to the nerf that it just really feels bad to anyone that played the class a ton of hours. So can you please understand his pain a little?

Growlron

Fell I stand by what I said. You dont read or comprehend.

Nothing Ive said is dishonest. Everything Ive said makes sense and is backed by evidence, that I have consistently provided.

#1 I'm NOT in the enchanter forums.
#2 My call to nerf the enchanter IS DIRECTLY TIED TO THE SHAMAN CLASS WRITE UP
#3 I can complain about an announced change that I don't like AND call out the inconsistencies of the dev following their own vision AND call out the inconsistencies of the dev in implementing changes in other classes vs what they did with shaman. Those things are NOT mutually exclusive nor do they contradict each other.
#4 I have never whined about casting debuffs again.
#5 Shaman have NEVER had infinite mana pool. Just another ignorant take from a non shaman player.
#6 You keep quoting 3rd most played class.. prove that.. where is that data published.
#7 As stated by others, your slow equation is wrong. Slow doesn't affect caster mobs, limitedly affects mobs that attack and cast. Slow doesn't affect abilities that mobs use to dmg.

At this point I have to assume you are just attempting to troll me or bait me into raging out on you. That are you are just arguing in bad faith. But I can assure you my positions are sound, logically based, and backed by evidence. Your vibe coded fly by night arguments just don't hold up, nor will they impact my conviction.

Growlron

Jat ^ this person gets it.

Zaroua

CalBearGuy Your complaining over the last week has made me annoyed with the settings within the forums, specifically that I don’t have the ability to mute/ignore specific people like we could on discord

Mouse over his name on the top left of the post, you'll see a window pop up with a ... icon. Click that icon and you'll be able to ignore him. You can also click his name to open a new tab, near the top right of that tab you'll get a Controls drop down menu from which you can also ignore him.

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