Enchanter Deep Dive discussion

GM_Trent

https://monstersandmemories.com/class-enchanter-deep-dive

Mesh

There's some uncertainty over whether Enchanter is also supposed to receive mana from CHA now, as the Bard deep dive mentions?

I'm assuming it was just left out of the Enchanter write-up by mistake? Would seem pretty odd for Bard to receive mana from CHA as a primary stat but not Enchanter. Especially in light of the INT/WIS consolidation that healers and DPS casters received.

Stat Changes
Charisma is now used to determine bard mana, as well as damage bonuses on songs. It would apply to healing as well, but Bards currently lack any such spell. Hymn of Restoration is a Health Regeneration stat buff, not an actual heal.
https://monstersandmemories.com/class-bard-deep-dive

Also can't figure out why these remain separate spells? Please consider just merging them into a single group buff.

Group Sagacity
Inspire your party, increasing their Charisma, Intelligence, and Wisdom.
Group Enlightenment
Enlighten your party's minds, increasing their Mana Regeneration.

Similarly, why not merge the STR and haste buffs and also add a group version for them?

Especially since the buff duration reduction, the amount of pure immersion breaking UI jank of having to repeatedly mem swap multiple different buffs is pretty tedious. Partly merging the mental buffs is a step in the right direction but it's still an unnecessary chore refreshing at least 4 separate buffs every 35m.

Being able to swap a single spell slot between one mental and one physical group buff would feel much less onerous.

Finally, the removal of Enchant Ally is very disappointing. It was a fantastic alternative to charm gameplay and I would have liked to see more done with it. Please commit to revisiting this later!

Reviever

im over it already but excited for the thoughts here.

riverbender

Nerfing our DPS instead of buffing DPS class DPS is certainly a choice. Please take this opportunity to reflect on the proverbial "race to the bottom" and never base any design choice on "Discord/Streamers didn't like it" ever again. But until then congratulations to those guys, they got Charm effectively removed from the game.

Deezler

So, in order to effectively provide value via charm, we need to fully buff (thank Vespyra its only 1 spell now!...oh wait, the melee buffs aren't consolidated? LOL) the charm pet - which will then still provide very lack-luster DPS (it cannot solo a mob) but upon break, rip you and your entire group to shreds potentially. What is the point? If you're going to listen to a bunch of non-enchanters complain about charm and side with them, just remove the spell altogether and give us something else.

This was a horrible change, similar to the jewelcraft nerf - and instead of making other things better to bring them up to par, you've completely obliterated the spell. The risk/reward is all risk for zero reward - just use your regular pet like 90% of enchanters were already doing anyway because they can't be bothered to keep a charm pet (It's a lot of work, you cant even go use the restroom!). I've already tested - the damage is putrid - there is zero reason to charm in groups with this change, so there will be zero reason to bother grouping where they will be resigned to a glorified buffbot after a camp is broken.

Enchanters already couldn't do even half of what their EQ counterparts could - so I just don't understand where all the hate for charm came from! It's not like they were out there solo'ing bosses - it was simply a risk/reward that sometimes got you or your group a 1-way ticket to their bind on an untimely break... add to that nerfing paci into the ground - and they now have 2 more very very niche, borderline useless spells to their kit that already included several.

Slotto

I understand why the decision was made, but i do not agree with it. This takes all the magic and fun of the class away. Being able to turn a monster against its will was epic, the enchanter was perfect. Powerful, dangerous, fun. Im sure i speak for many when i say this kills the spirit of the class. I understand the need for balance, but the quirky weird nuances of EQ are what made it so great. I know there are many factors and considerations when making this game that us players are not privy too, but i wasbhoping that whatever solution was put in place would not be THIS. I would have preferred you buff other classes dps or perhaps made charm break more or something. Im dissapointed and sad. RIP

Mithril

I can't respect a company that doesn't play its own game enough and then chooses to take input from people that have never played the class to make adjustments to said class. The rework feels rushed and lazy, I'm out.

Rougar0u

Outside spellblade and cleric. Most these reworks have been bad.

lich

Yikes

turtle

posted this feedback in other threads but this seems like the "official" one so will share here

as a level 39 enchanter the highest level charm spell I have access to is Greater, which has a cap of level 35 mobs being charmable

this means until I hit 40 and can unlock the new spell, and realistically from 35-39, there's no reason to use charm as the shadowkin does more damage and carries zero risk

it also means if I wanted to try and solo reverse charm a dark blue that's out the window, because everything is light blue that I can charm (as far as I know?)

if the intention is to have the charmed pet doing +25% damage over the shadowkin, why are there deadzones like this where that's clearly not possible based on the level restriction?

Vane

I wouldn't mind charm nerf if we still had enchant ally as an alternative and safer playstyle, for people who don't want to risk a charm break in the situation they're in

lich

[unknown] You acknowledge that there is a risk to Charm, why is a nerf on the risky play style ok if you had a safer play style, which you also still have and had before they removed it along with the charm nerf

Deklin

I have a 60 enchanter (Beldin), though I am fairly recent to 60. I play with a static and my brother who is a druid. Historically, my brother and I could duo what our 6 man static was doing to a lesser degree, but still getting named spawns and farming. Charm damage was broken in that regard. Druid/Enchanter combo out in Glass Flats with Ravenous Creepers was broke.
Static is: Enchanter, Druid, Shadow Knight, Beastmaster, Monk, Elementalist.

I never really did the charm swapping thing, I messed around with it but I had a duo to play with so I see where this is broken in that regard.

After the patch, I had my big feels about the changes and can echo a lot of what has been said here previous.

I think it's weird other caster classes get their primary stat as their mana pool, but enchanters have Int for mana sole, and Charisma for everything else.
- I think it's unfortunate that Int no longer affects mana drain, I was really looking forward to Mana Drain VI before this change.
I previously typically did not keep the torment line nor Mindshackle on my bar, my mana is for other things; post change i do not see this changing in a group situation for me, or probably much in a solo/duo. I would hot swap them in and out as needed. My bar has a lot going on, and dps is not my role, though they are good options to have when i need them.
I think strength and swiftness ought to have group buff version if not combined and group versions.
- Odd that group buff versions have a reagent component when other classes do not.
"Your pet is still a solid source of damage, though it has been reduced some to differentiate it from the dedicated pet casters: Elementalist and Necromancer. Your Shadowkin now summons at your own level as you grow, instead of falling behind between upgrades." - from enchanter Deep dive notes. Are we not a Dedicated pet class?
"The Damage of Charmed NPCs is now reduced to be on-par with the damage of a dedicated pet class’ pet." - From bard deep dive, Bards are considered a dedicated pet class with charm but no summon pet?
150 Cha is kind of difficult to achieve with current item set and having to balance a mana pool. I have +7 int jewelry with +4 Cha, Mana is an issue especially after mana drain is no longer boosted by int (dunno about if it is by cha, didn't seem like it)
Enchant Ally was OP in raid situations, I think removal was a bit too much, but maybe an exhaust would have kept it useful in group situations without breaking raid content.
Greater Invis was a cool high level spell for masters of illusions and magic. It makes more sense for Enchanters to have reliable high level invisibility than it does a rogue "walking very very quietly" down a lit hall way. /Shrug
Combined Int/Wis/Cha is nice, but the annoying ones to keep up are Enlightenment Strength, Haste, Haste ought to have group version, and Str probably should too. I dunno think the need to be combined, buffing is still part of the class.

After having my feels and testing with a 52 Rav in GF, These are my thoughts

The damage Risk/Reward is not there in a group situation

I charmed a Rav (52 spider) and had it fought another one.
what I found
NPC Rav was hitting for around 170
unbuffed my charmed rav was hitting for 54
buffed with haste/str and NPC slowed and crippled, that number rose to 66.
unbuffed; my charmed pet was getting smoked.
buffed and debuffedt target; it was coming out about half health.
My buffed 60 pet was hitting same target for about 76, but there's a 8 lvl difference (I want to say previously it was hitting for 35-45?)
Buffed charmed pet was able to hold agro while being healed by duid but I don't think i would in a group situation.
It did seem like charm was breaking more than previously to me, I'm sitting at 133 cha buffed. (145 int and i think around 2750 mana)

I won't be using a charmed pet in EA in my static 6. The risk of charm breaking and a buffed pet molly stomping me isn't worth the reward the dmg charmed pet does.

If I wanted to solo though, I'm going to charm a random mob, buff it up, break charm, then send my pet after it, letting the buffed NPC kill my pet, and break it before it dies, kill the now molly womped charmed pet while mezzing/rooting the buffed shredder. Then get another pet and send it into the shredder. Rinse and repeat. I don't think the solo exp farm complaint was fixed at all. Honestly, don't plan on soloing much if at all.

Zest

Seems to me charm level caps need to be given the new pet treatment and grow with you rather than being hardcoded into each spell version.

Unless something just gor goofed that level gap has to be why they missed their mark ob making chaos do 25% more than summoned pets.

To be completely honest now that damage is normalized and its been inpractical to charm yellows/reds for awhile maybe the clunkiness of hardcapping what level relative to current at all is only even necessary to increase the mana of charm.

Though I suppose simplest solution might just be to set the level cap of each charm to 4 levels higher than the level you get the next charm- ensures a smooth progression for whole leveling process.

Neb

Deezler Basically this.

Whoever is in charge of those changes has no real heart into the game tbh. That person has never played the class extensively, has a narrow minded view on how the class should be played and well thats it, no further creativity. You guys are putting this game on so tight boring rails, it loses it's fun. My hopes from alpha with all the enthusiams and possibilities is totally gone. You guys have basically pantheonized this class. "Oh but Pantheon had no charm!!"... yes exactly...

Oh and who came up with those boring "lesser, greater, exceptional...." for almost EVERY of our spell lines? Was tranquility, brilliance, etc such a problem to use? All spell lines have lost their individual names because people are too stupid to distinguish and read the tool tips? Or have you guys just ran it through chatgpt to streamline the spell names as you did when you created those items and just used the npc's names that dropped them as part of the items names? I called that "lazy" in my feedback and luckily it got changed. So about this change. no person who has an individual take on a class would do that, there is no heart in it at all.... So yea, significant room for improvement.

Caji

I have to echo what people have said here. I’ve spent a lot of hours in beta playing ENC (level 59) and these reworks have been very disappointing and lack luster. It has slowly turned me from being excited to play this game to now never wanting to play. I don’t think I will even play EA anymore after this rework.

As others have stated, charm was high risk and high reward. Now we charm a pet that does lack luster damage, but when it breaks and comes straight for us and is doing its full amount of NPC damage, that makes absolutely no sense. Plus, to mention you have given basically every single mob in the entire game a kick/stun/bash and/or even whilst having max channeling skill you are constantly just interrupted trying to even get a stun or root or re-charm off.

It mentions retained spells like reclaim essence and recharge item but those spells haven’t even ever worked. Were these fixed now?

Very disappointing. I went from someone who basically begged for a beta key because I was so excited to play this game, went hard and dedicated hours and days to test this game and to have all our suggestions just get swept under the rug is gutting. I hope they revisit their choices here in the future.

Mesh

Zest
Yep.

The charm tuning was long overdue. It's good that the spell is now more in-line with the rest of the game.

However, now that it's no longer supercharged DPS, there's no reason for it to be restricted to level 52 or have such large gaps in the spell tiers. Should allow you to charm mobs up to your own level all the way to 60 IMO.

Neb

Yes give us lvl 52+ charm now that we do not use it anymore, just my humor xD...

Uberhalf

riverbender This 1000%. I really don't understand why we're nerfing everything instead of making the other DPS classes better. A lot of the reworks might balance the classes, but they took away things that were fun and made them one dimentional.

Uberhalf

Caji I was so freaking jazzed about this game after playing a fair amount in Alpha then all of Beta. I feel like the game peaked in March and has progressively gotten more and more boring due to the class reworks. It's ok for a class to be fun!