Enchanter Deep Dive discussion

Tyr

Yep been saying it everywhere I can, to the point where I’m becoming annoyed with myself, but the reworks by and large have been bad for the game.

Gameplay wise they’re all starting to feel samey, boring, and weak, and no not just at early levels. I’m worried because not just power wise but also the fun factor in most classes took a huge hit and this will not make a good impression compared to other options out there.

Worse many of the changes really show the people making them certainly have not leveled these classes 1-60 in a non dev environment, (I mean realistically how could they? I don’t know how you make more accurate changes in that case but this ain’t it)

Fun and interesting classes and gameplay is the single biggest thing they needed to get right for launch and they’re failing pretty spectacularly in my estimation. Just look at pantheon as a recent example for a staunch player base that can and will abandon the game if you spin your wheels in development like this

Fell

Caji

I’ve spent a lot of hours in beta playing ENC (level 59) and these reworks have been very
disappointing...As others have stated, charm was high risk and high reward.

I have a 60 ENC with about 1000 hours playtime, and this isn't true. Charm was very low risk, for a reward that made an enchanter able to outdamage an entire group at times. While admittedly a charm break on a big pull added a little risk, I don't believe I've EVER died from a charm break alone. Not once.

you have given basically every single mob in the entire game a kick/stun/bash and/or even whilst having
max channeling skill you are constantly just interrupted trying to even get a stun or root or re-charm off."

This isn't true at all. Even with multiple mobs on you, you're not going to have trouble getting your stun off -- I literally curse out loud whenever my stun is interrupted, because it's such a rare event. A root is only slightly more difficult. It's only the charm that's hard ... if you have more than one mob on you, don't attempt it. Stun, mez, or root first.

I suggest you give the rework a little more of a chance. Enchanters were gods among men before, an appeal which starts high, but pales fast. We're still a little OP on the CC side in my opinion, and -- as for charm -- well they might have gone a bit overboard in reducing dmg, but if so, I imagine we'll get a retune before long.

Fell

Uberhalf

I really don't understand why we're nerfing everything instead of making the other DPS classes better.

Probably because (FW aside) there literally isn't a single camp in the game which presents even a shred of challenge whatsoever to four decent players, much less a full group of six. There were even a lot of level-appropriate "group" camps that could be done with 2 or 3 players.

Razzle

Firstly, we can all agree that charm was "overperforming" previously, especially if you knew what to charm.
But this is too much...

My short testing matches the numbers that Beldin posted here earlier.

A charmed lvl 52 spider in Glass Flats hits for 66 damage while my regular summoned pet attacks for 76 damage. (With exceptional strength applied).

Is this damage normalized for all charmed targets based on level or based on the NPC? Regardless we see here that "...the charmed pet damage is an upgrade of at least 25% more than your summoned pet." patch notes are inaccurate. (Unless you've compared the summoned pet at equal level to the charmed pet, which usually isn't the case past lvl 52).

The amount of time it takes to find a good charm candidate and then getting it to your group is an aspect people rarely consider when they talk about charm. Every time we've farmed Crystalline Giants or attempted Ga'Duuz I've had to run to spider hill to grab a spider to charm while the rest of the group(s) take a 15min break.

In Vale of Zintar I've searched the entire giant camp for a lvl 52 giant to charm sometimes forcing my group to help me clear spawns if one isn't up. Then If I'm not using "clever in game mechanics", needing to invis and / or babysit this giant until we get to our desired spot.

All because it was worth it, (and also fun because it was worth it) even so that my group agreed.

It added gameplay to the game and a layer to Enchanters / Charming classes were knowledge about potential charm candidates and location would distinguish the players that made the effort and had that knowledge.

I love charm, I love this class... But why would I use charm in a group when the damage is lower than the summoned pet? And even assuming it gets fixed, I'm still not sure the extra 25% damage is worth everything I've listed compared to just using the summoned pet? (Especially when Enchant Ally returns in one form or another)

Where I instead get to go to the bathroom without having a contingency plan and instead save my mana for debuffs and nukes which will probably be a net positive for the group overall.

Charm needs to be "worth it" to be used and right now it I'm not sure I'd ever use it.

Also just like Beldin already pointed out, this does not help reverse charming at all... I will still solo just as fast. Really, this update makes me want to group even less because actually using the charmed pet would be detrimental. Now It's primarily just a tool that let me take any charmable target I want down to low HP.

Fell

Razzle

we can all agree that charm was "overperforming" previously, especially if you knew what to charm.
But this is too much...

Admittedly I'm spitballing here, but the problem doesn't seem to be with the charm nerf itself, but rather the 52 charm cap, which only existed because charming a 60 mob would have been, pre-nerf, even more comically overpowered.

Now that the charm nerf is in, there's really no reason to remove the level cap.

Pons

As an ench main this further confirms to me I won’t be playing MnM come EA. I already quit a few weeks back… it’s frustrating watching the potential this game had being washed away with each of these class changes.

EA is basically one week out and most of the classes are so discombobulated now. More so than they were a few months ago. Yikes.

Zaroua

Deklin Are we not a Dedicated pet class?

Nah Enchanters are support/CC. Their pet is a secondary fixture of the class.

Caji charm was high risk and high reward.

It wasn't. It was low to medium risk, extreme reward. Now it's low to medium risk, low reward. I do agree on the revisiting the older Charm restrictions

Uberhalf This 1000%. I really don't understand why we're nerfing everything instead of making the other DPS classes better. A lot of the reworks might balance the classes, but they took away things that were fun and made them one dimentional.

Buffing the DPS classes to be on par with pre-patch Charm means buffing the tanks and the healers and rebalancing the entire game including loot, monsters, spells, raid encounters, etc, etc.

More importantly, people need to stop overreacting and stop acting like this is THE ABSOLUTE LAST TIME CHARM WILL GET CHANGED OR TUNED OH MY GOD 10 YEARS FROM NOW CHARM WILL BE THE SAME AS IT IS ON THIS CURRENT PATCH THE CLASS IS DOOMED THE DEVS HATE THE GAME AND DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CLASS.

Rougar0u

Welcome to Shadows of Luclin enchanter. You mez break a camp and buff. Then sit down and afk while playing bg dark alliance for 30 minutes

Uberhalf

Zaroua I expected it to get tuned, but they gutted it. I am allowed to be super disappointed. They added a gimmick mechanic to one of my favorite classes, Druid so I decided to main my other favorite class Enchanter. Now the way you play Enchanter is completely changed. Charm is useless. There are levels where the only thing you can charm is green and it just gets destroyed. I loved this game more than anything else I have ever played. I felt like I found home after 25 years of searching for something that felt like EQ did when I started it. Now it doesn't feel like home anymore right before the game launches. I hope that will change, but it just seems like every deep dive just makes the game less fun. It's mighty suspicious that right when someone left the team the classes start changing drastically for the worse.

Fell

Rougar0u

Welcome to Shadows of Luclin enchanter. You mez break a camp and buff. Then sit down and afk

That's not how I played Luclin chanter ... break the camp, then pull mobs like mad, while the rest of the group sits in camp ...especially in zones like Griegs End.

Uberhalf

Charm is useless. There are levels where the only thing you can charm is green

I didn't re-buy all the lower level charms -- is this true? I know the 40 charm allows up to level 47, when means at 51 (worst case) you can charm something just 4 levels below you. Even at 60 you can charm a lt. blue 52 -- one level below dark blue ... and I assume that, now that the charm nerf is in, they're going to raise that cap.

PACKATK74

I've only ever gotten an Enchanter to lvl 20 pre-EA and I left the class when Lull changes were made earlier this year (those changes are back again incase no one noticed), and please pardon if this has been suggested or isn't what the community is wanting. I wonder, since the class is building into INT and CHA (intended or not?) why not link the damage a charmed pet does to the INT of the chanter, sorta like the INT is linked to the damage an Elementalist pet does currently post deep dive? The higher the INT the closer to NPC MOB damage done... dunno how you'd math it to make sense but it may be a solution... again I haven't been in the Enchanter community for a long while but I hate what I've seen done to charm, Cheers.

Rougar0u

Fell Ya you have big gaps till 40 charm. Even raising the cap to 60 wouldn't do that much at this point. We are back to 1.5 year ago enchanter they no one played. Well except neb cause he likes abuse

Uberhalf

I'm bummed. I guess I'm going to pick a different class that has already had a deep dive that they didn't totally F up and main that until something changes.

Rougar0u

Well to be honest all the caster deeps have been bad. Melees been decent minus inq.

Ucuri

Not many people replying here. The shaman deep dive thread exploded after their rework. All gone already?

Somehow i think the enchanter population will shrink massively and people start complaining about CC again.

In EQ i played without charm, but the enchanter there had way more offense. The Damage Spells could at least kill a blue mob without running oom.
Our nukes here are a manasponge and not worth using.

There are so many logical flaws now with this class it's mind boggling.
New Spell Icons seem to be the most focussed part.
Charm damage nerf - ok - reasonable. But now we can't always charm up to our level.

Why should i even bother stacking charisma?
With full INT Build i can CC more, debuff more, regen faster.
4 Spells scale with Charisma - Charm (doesn't really scale if i can't charm up to my level), the nukes partly (the channeled one scales off both), Runeskin...

The class is a buggy mess now which can still function as CC (the later ranks of mez are kinda worthless tho) but is wonky as hell in it's design.

Gear is kinda meaningless other then for manapool - thats the vision?
People won't play EA if that continues.

Fell

Rougar0u

We are back to 1.5 year ago enchanter they no one played.

A lot of people play enchanter for the CC aspect only, not charm. And with buff consolidation and the new daze effect, enchanters in this role got buffed, not nerfed.

Ucuri

n EQ i played without charm, but the enchanter there had way more offense. The Damage Spells could at least kill a blue mob without running oom.

Not in classic EQ, except at the lowest levels.

Why should i even bother stacking charisma?

This is very valid -- but an easy fix. The channeled nuke should revert to INT scaling, whereas mez should be based off CHA. That means if you want to focus CC or charm, you stack CHA; if you want to focus on summon pet + nukes/buffs/debuffs, you focus INT. And the gaps in charm are easily correctable -- and I'm sure they will be.

The class is a buggy mess now which can still function as CC (the later ranks of mez are kinda worthless tho)

CC is actually still overpowered. I've been advocating for the mez durations to be scaled back substantially -- as of now, an enchanter can lock down a good 6, 7, even 8 mobs indefinitely without running out of mana. And that includes yellows and low reds, assuming you keep them magic cracked.

Ucuri

Fell i could kill blue con mobs in classic EQ only with suffocate and the all or nothing magic nuke until i reached level 60.
That's a fact.
I mained enchanter back in the days. Always disliked charm.

Fell

Ucuri There WAS NO level 60 in Classic EQ. And beyond level 30s, a blue con meant "challenging to an entire group, not a single player". Nuking a high blue (there was no light blue yet) dungeon mob to death wasn't possible -- they had more hp, and you didn't have room for your unreliable root to keep you alive. Outdoors, you could kill a blue with nukea, but it was going to take you OOM or very close to it.

You could of course use the choke line, which was twice as mana efficient ... if you didn't mind waiting 3, 4, maybe 5 minutes for a mob to die. DoTs were -slow- by today's terms.

Zest

Fell

Preach. Enchanter already has the strongest kit in the game with or without charm. Before we even get into the expansive suite of buffs and debuffs CC is king and no one does CC like enchanter.

Honestly I'm kinda looking forward to having the people who play enchanter because they want to do CC as a primary role from those who were just playing because charm was overtuned. I certainly know who I'd rather have in my group to pull bad situations out of the fire.

Ucuri

Fell so you never soloed in lower guk as enchanter without charm?
Did the arch magi there and the frenzied solo.

and yes it was 50 pre kunark. sorry. since wow also goes to 60 i mixed that up.

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