Enchanter Deep Dive discussion

kridak

Zest yep you should have a solid 5 people willing to sit and buff and cc for you. the devs obviously ignored what happen when eq did this lol... good luck finding an enchanter when all an enchanter does is buff and cc the odd bad pull...jesus just break the camp and you dont need cc at all...allot of classes can help break camps...cc is over rated unless your lazy and just pull everything.

Raybane

kridak But that is the role of the Enchanter. Incidentally, being used to handling CC also makes the "risk" of using charm pretty trivial.

Fell

@kridak

good luck finding an enchanter when all an enchanter does is buff and cc the odd bad pull
...jesus just break the camp and you dont need cc at all.

That's a problem in itself: excluding the new FW, there isn't a camp in game that's any sort of challenge for even four people, much less a full group of six. If we're speaking outdoor camps, there isn't even one that's challenging for a trio. Hopefully that will change though.

In any case, don't panic over charm. Quite obviously, tuning a charm pet to be less damage than a summon pet is is a simple mistake.

@Ucuri

so you never soloed in lower guk as enchanter without charm?
Did the arch magi there and the frenzied solo.
and yes it was 50 pre kunark. sorry. since wow also goes to 60 i mixed that up.

No you didn't, LOL, not without a charm pet. I suspect you're mixing this up with either Kunark era, or your experience on a TLP.

I mained enchanter back in the days. Always disliked charm.

My classic-era enchanter has some 45,000 hours of playtime, and probably that much again on 3 more enchanters on different TLPs.

Ucuri

i "only" played classic EQ, so 27 years old memory.
To refresh my memory i had a chat with Gemini and looked some videos up.
I know i was down there soloing without charm. Probably then with Kunark idk. I can't say what level i had at that time, was under the impression it was pre Kunark. But after seeing some videos i doubt it myself.

And as you mentioned. Charm is "bugged" now, the damage values are indeed off. Can confirm that with my testing.

Mesh

The damage on charm was overtuned and well overdue for a fix. I'm sure NWC will correct the spell rank distribution and balance the break rate against the reduced damage output. Tuning is an iterative process. It takes time.

This incessant need some people have to throw an adult temper tantrum every time NWC makes a change is goofy. I've seen the same person claim they're quitting the game 5 patches in a row.

aerah

Came here to say a lot of what Fell and Zaroua already said about risk vs reward, the value of cc, and why you can’t scale everything around enchanter charm pet dps.

Keep talking about the charm pet damage output as the problem, provide examples as you’ve done, and they may tweak the algorithm so that their expected charm pet dps being 25% more than summoned pet may get closer to reality. This is a place for testing, so show them their expectations aren’t happening (i.e. test) and help them get it to where they want it to be.

While I’m not as accredited as many of the names on this list, I do have a 40something enc in beta that I started after the TTK changes. I also have a 60 fighter (and have grouped with Fell and plenty of other enchanters through that characters journey to 60.) I bring this up so you understand the experience that shaped my outlook.

Groups criminally undervalue CC. It’s not just about breaking a camp. The less time you spend running back and forth bringing mobs to camp, the more time
you spend actively killing those mobs. If for every
time you leave camp you can come back with 2-4 mobs, your xp/pull ratio is increased. Your overall transit (down) time is decreased. Your puller is adding value by providing more dps/heals/utility.

I’m glad charm got changed. Might it be too aggressive? Perhaps. Is it working exactly as intended? Perhaps not. But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t required.

Nyx

Charm is still OP even with the nerfs. Frankly I think it should do less damage than a summoned pet. Pulling out a summoned pet and then using it to fight 3 things isn't the same as fighting 3 things and then taking one of those things out of the fight completely. If your pulled has a bad pull. Having a summoned pet to take on 1 out of 4 mobs does not help nearly as much as taking one of those 4 mobs and charming it and then using it to tank the 3rd one while the group kills the other two.

Charm is still OP.

Rougar0u

Nyx What?

Jephry

Fell That's a problem in itself: excluding the new FW, there isn't a camp in game that's any sort of challenge for even four people, much less a full group of six. If we're speaking outdoor camps, there isn't even one that's challenging for a trio. Hopefully that will change though.

Really glad you feel that way. Not all of us are sweaty tryhards. There are, indeed, camps that are challenging for three, four - heck, even six! - players, especially without CC. I'm not panicking over these changes, because I feel like they will be retuned at some point. Your condescending remarks are grating. It's comments like yours that have helped contribute to the watering down and "unfunning" of the reworked classes.

Jephry

Nyx Yet another "tell me you don't play a certain class without telling my you don't play a certain class" response. Good grief.

Transcendent

Jephry That dude has to be trolling. I hope so at least.

Rougar0u

well you have a 4 damage nuke till level 12. Goodluck

Fell

Nyx

Charm is still OP even with the nerfs. Frankly I think it should do less damage than a summoned pet. Pulling out a
summoned pet and then using it to fight 3 things isn't the same as fighting 3 things and then taking one of those
things out of the fight completely.

Frankly this is a nonsensical take that shows a deep misunderstanding of the mechanics here. When you charm a mob, you haven't "taken it out of the fight completely". Either you keep the pet across pulls (which means 199 out of your 200 pulls for the evening have just as many mobs as they otherwise would. Or you have to kill that mob THAT PULL ... in which case, it's far safer and more efficient to simply put it on ice via mez. And lets not forget "keeping" the pet involves it breaking randomly .... which sometimes turns a 4-mob pull into five mobs, with one of them preventing the enchanter from doing CC until he gets the pet under control.

Charm is NOT a CC tool. If you use it for initial aggro on a large group -- and presuppose you don't get resisted nor get a very early break -- it can be helpful. But when that happens (as it so often does) you've made a difficult pull even worse.

I have advocated before to modify charm into a form that was far less damage, but actually useful in crowd control. But what we got now ain't it.

Fell

Jephry

Really glad you feel that way. Not all of us are sweaty tryhards. There are, indeed, camps that are challenging
for three, four - heck, even six! - players

Outside of FW, I can't think of any -- not if you presuppose even a minimal amount of balance in the group. And of course I'm talking about a level appropriate camp, i.e. killing mobs your level or just a tad higher. Excepting a couple of the new raids, I believe I've been everywhere. What camps were you thinking of?

Alarkos

Mesh Strongly agree with the disappointment in seeing Enchant Ally disappear. I was thinking that Enchant Ally would become one of the cornerstones of the class. Think different versions of the spell that are more beneficial for tanks, melee, casters etc. Think ranks of Enchant Ally that give you more buttons to push besides the shield and the arrow attack off the ally...

They said they'd come back to it, but I think Enchant Ally was fantastic and would really love to see it back.

Also, yes, consolidate the melee buff just like we got for the caster buff. It feels strange to me that they don't mirror each other in that regard.

Aikons

Haven't played in a minute or two, any feedback on the new Daze effect from Vespyra's Veil? Do mobs get mezzed when they hit you? How often? How long?

Is it guddd?

Fell

Aikons any feedback on the new Daze effect from Vespyra's Veil? Do mobs get mezzed when they hit you? How often? How long?

It's a 2-second mez, and it fires (in my testing) about 5% of the time (per hit). Honestly, it's not something we needed. A slightly higher channeling skill would have been more in line.

Mesh

Alarkos
Agree. Hoping Xilith has firm plans to revisit Enchant Ally sooner rather than later.

Otherwise it'll end up being one of those things that got pushed to the side and forgotten about.

Unchainedfury

I don't play an enchanter, but I do necro charm frequently and can empathize and agree with the majority of opinions here. Charm needed a DPS nerf, for sure, but it feels completely worthless from my minimal testing in the lower 20's.

I still haven't tested it out on a my lvl 60. It does feel that half of the pure caster classes (please GOD, XILITH, DON'T DO IT!) have suffered major setbacks in the "fun department" and were quite possibly rushed due to time constraints. I do have faith corrections will come further down the line and I'd rather see more time taken to "get it right" than being rushed, than re-visited, over and over again.

With that being said, the overall sense I gather is sterilizing class quirks, outliers, and uniqueness has taken priority. I pray that I'm wrong.

That's just the feeling I'm getting.

Mithril

Fell And those are the people that NWC decided to listen to instead of pinging enchanters for feedback. They are going to Pantheon this game.

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