Wizard needs help. It is among the worst damage class in the game right now

Cornmuffin

One of the devs mentioned how the first deep dives, they spent an extra two weeks trying to get it right, and that’s why these final deep dives aren’t making it before EA.

The comment was then followed up with something along the lines of “and the first deep dives aren’t even balanced in line with the later deep dives”.

The spirit of that was that they should push first passes and then balance after, so the extra time maybe wasn’t worth it.

Anyways, my point in all of that, is that I think wizards will see some buffs (QOL, etc) come their way.

I also don’t like putting stacks on a mob to then remove them to then reapply them. It just doesn’t feel like a ”wizard” vibe mechanic. (I actually don’t like building stacks on the wizard, period.)

I’m hopeful the next pass will be better

Ernst

Gandalf is rolling in his grave over this thread

Nyx

Fell

Shoo shoo, go away, you have no math to bring yourself. You have no credibility here.

Nyx

Fell

Lol, you lost the argument about druids, so you now want to insert another DPS class that is also not your main. You have no credibility to compare wizards to anything.

You should just leave, man. NO one cares about your opinions on this matter. No one cares what groups you make or what comp you would select. All of that is situational, depending on the makeup of the group, friends, and such. So anything you say is just a niche scenario you have cherry-picked out to make your argument sound good. Take whatever classes you want, but take your feeble arguments elsewhere.

You want everyone to prove themselves but feel like you don't have to prove anything. It's a terrible strategy.

The real issue is that you aren't paying attention to the math that's already laid out. I have already shown you mathematically that, regardless of what the other DPS classes are in the group, the Wizard will still fall behind them over the course of a group/mob grind session. We've already discussed the need for burst DPS in the game world. But you can't admit that it takes more development time than just smoothing out the damage streams for now. So you've said what you came here to say; now you're just talking in circles about classes you have only anecdotal evidence for.

Fell

WhiskyJack He was a teacher and there was this student in his class that was continuously disruptive, rude, picked fights with the other children, and was just a general nuisance to have around. In short, he was a lot like you.

One day my Dad took him out into the hall... Marcus replied "Man! You tryin to teach me sh!t I ain't even know."

I won't dignify what appears to be a stealth racist jibe, but I'll again suggest you focus on game issues. You've repeatedly claimed that keeping yourself OOM somehow boosts your DPS, and any attempt to correct that misapprehension results in another round of insults.

You want your chosen class to be more powerful. We get it. EVERY other class wants that. Druid forum right now? "Class is unbalanced, we need more damage." Rogue forum? Same. Enchanter? Same. Ranger? Same. Monk? Same. Necro? Same. Hell, even Archers and Mages -- the very pinnacle of DPS classes -- are asking, not for more damage, but more power in the form of additional abilities.

Listen to someone who ISN'T insanely biased. Wizards are well-balanced against most classes. Wiz. v. Mage -- there's a point there, but wiz vs. druid IS. NOT. IT. Period.

Nyx

Fell

BTW, did you follow earlier when I asked what credibility you have to show that demonstrates you have any business talking about the Wizard?

BTW, did you follow earlier when I asked you what you "found out" when you went to search for how high a druid nukes for? You wanted to say you never heard of a druid nuking that high, and you just came back trying to discredit me over gear and INT vs WIS and you were once again wrong about that lol.

BTW, did you follow earlier when I laid out all the math to show how wizards fall behind DPS over the course of just 10 minutes and were you able to realize how that gap gets wider and wider as you go to 20 minutes and then 30 minutes and 60 etc.?

Go home Fell.

Nyx

Fell

You're more than welcome to go play in the Ench forums and speak on that class because you've played it. But you don't have any business talking about the Wiz v. Mage. I've gone through a lot of effort to show you that you're wrong, with facts. And you want to say you are right because your anecdotal experiences tell you otherwise? Please. Go take your biased arguments elsewhere.

No one here cares for your input on the Wizard class. You are just speaking about something you have no credibility to speak out of. You don't know the numbers, the spells, the cast times, you don't know the data. You've proven that to us. Your argument is built on feelings and stories.

Fell

Nyx I've gone through a lot of effort to show you that you're wrong, with facts.

Except your facts prove my point definitively, and you haven't even attempted to dispute my points. Wizards outdamage druids. Any group that wants damage only will pick a wizard over a druid. Druids get picked only when BOTH dmg and heals are needed. You don't even know what "balance" means, so why are you even trying to discuss it?

In a caster-heavy group, wizard debuffs can add as much damage as their nukes do. Wizard are BY FAR the best at burst DPS. They have high - but not the highest -- utility. They are far from a "broken class".

What's most ironic is your very presence here proves that point. If you really did believe that 3rd-in-class heals "have more utility" than the wizard's extra damage, you'd be in the druid forum right now, whining about druid damage.

Fell

Nyx You don't know the numbers, the spells, the cast times,

Hilarious, when I'm using your own numbers to prove my point. I'm taking your own faulty "2700 dmg max cast" as a baseline when I personally have seen wizards break 3,000. And if you somehow believe that some cast time figure or spell name will add to your argument, feel free to quote it.

But we all know better, don't we?

Nyx

Fell

You don't have any legs to stand on, All of your arguments are non-factual. You still havent established any credibility lol. You're trying to prove me wrong with my own data and you're still not even paying attention or even winning that argument.

NO one here appreciates your feedback or opinions.

Fell

Nyx I asked you what you "found out" when you went to search for how high a druid nukes for? You wanted to say you never heard of a druid nuking that high,...

Don't distort my words. What I actually said was that I'd never heard for a druid breaking 2300 without wiz or spd debuffs on the mob, though I'd seen 2200 plenty of times.

Again, I'm using your own figures. They prove that wizards outdamage druids by a good 20%, which is more than enough for balance purposes. If you learn what the word "balance" actually means, you'll understand why this is so.

riverbender

Gentlemen, for shame forbear this outrage!
Tybalt! Mercutio! The Prince expressly hath
Forbid this bandying in Verona streets.
Hold, Tybalt! Good Mercutio!

Nyx

Fell

I never said 2700 was the max cast baseline on the nuke. You're wrong once again. I told you it was an average. I told you both the druid and wizard nukes scale upwards with INT/WIS buffs and SPB and Wiz spell dmg increases. So you're not proving anything, you're just reiterating how ignorant you are and how you're not paying attention. I have also nuked for over 3k, but in that same position the Druid is also nuking for 2600-2700 damage. But the difference between you and I is I have the data and I back up my arguments with that. You don't lol.

You do not know the numbers. You do not have any data. You have not played the class. You have no business to discuss here that is materially relevant. Go home Fell, go back to your Ench forums.

Fell

Nyx All of your arguments are non-factual.

My statements are based on YOUR facts. Are you trying to say your data is wrong?

Your argument boils down to "because druids have heals, wizards are broken". Frankly, I wish I possessed the skills to properly express how inane that sentiment is. I'll ask again: if you truly believe those heals are worth giving up 20% damage, why didn't you stick with your druid?

We already know the answer. But are you honest enough to admit it?

Nyx

Fell

You're not bringing any relevant information to the discussion. You have no experience with the class yourself. You're not providing anything materially useful to this topic. If you look down the hall you'll find a door labeled Enchanters.

You're dismissed. Your input isn't needed here. You've done nothing useful in your time here. I hope you learned a few things but I'm doubtful about that one.

Taron

Fell You think it's just normal class favoritsm at work, or is it maybe a result of the changes to increase TTK and everyone got used to how it was before so now they all assume they do less damage than other classes when really just everyone does less damage? Or maybe everyone thought their damage seems bad because they were comparing themselves to the OP charm ability from before the nerf?

This isn't to say I don't believe people here about Wizard being lower than it should be and maybe they really are the worst - especially in the lower levels where it's actually pretty obvious and where, I fear, many players will bounce off Wizard before they get decent. I hope the devs don't just balance the numbers at level 60 and apply some curve to the rest and feel that's good enough!

But again I think there's an awful lot of discussion going on about damage numbers across these forums and the Discord before the balance pass has even happened. I feel the focus of feedback should be more about mechanics and usability and feel - like the complaints about glyph system quirks and how late many Wizard utilities come online and the talk about wanting content that gives the class's strengths opportunities to shine I feel way more pertinent than numbers in the spreadsheet that are due for a big update soon. I hope these bits of feedback aren't being drowned out by all the concerns about damage output from pretty much every class.

Creletha

Wizards do less damage over long periods of time than other dps classes, and it isn't close. If the claim is that this shouldn't matter because they have higher damage spikes, then the damage spikes need to be large enough to make that tradeoff worth it. I'm not sure what direction the devs want to take it in, but to say Wizards are fine now is just straight up wrong. Are they playable? Yeah. But if playable was the metric being aimed for, we wouldn't have seen any deep dives, because all these classes were playable months ago. The metric is fun, feels good, and not so god awful at their role in a group that they wouldn't be invited over other available options.

I hope that's the metric, at least. I feel the same about wizards right now as I do about necros in classic EQ groups. Can you shoehorn one in and kill things still? Yes. Does it perform noticeably worse than any other class you'd take for that spot? Also yes. It feels bad.

Nyx

Taron

I think that's more than likely what it is. I believe the other issue is people's inability to parse the information like they would with other games. I believe for many people it's just them staring at the combat chat and trying to get a "feel" for where every class stands.

But there's no way to measure gear lvls and no way to parse information. So it's mostly just their gut feelings and anecdotal evidence which isn't enough to truly substantiate their claims.

I believe the devs will address the numbers during the rebalance and hopefully also release some write ups on where they want certain classes to fall in the tier list of whose supposed to be doing the most damage. Some classes have more utilities than others and some classes utilities are not that useful but their DPS is taxed anyways. It's stuff they'll work out. Just going to take time.

I believe the best feedback we can give the devs are ways to tweak numbers or small changes to bring about incremental changes that are easier to code in and adjust instead of asking them to make complex changes that require more development time and require more extensive testing and would take up larger swaths of time than making small changes in various areas.

Mesh

Nyx
Everything I've read from devs indicates that Wizards are intended to be a top performing DPS class so I assume that's where they'll end up after the EA balance passes.

I also remember either Xilith or Jahaar (?) on Discord saying their intent is for DPS classes to be balanced within 10-15% of each other anyway so we shouldn't see classes significantly outperforming each other after things are dialed in.

Raybane

Mesh I would actually be fine if Wizards are at the bottom of the dedicated DPS classes in sustained DPS, but in return got a significant advantage in burst damage. It may not be as useful as it should be, but it's what Wizards is about and why I want to play one.

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