Proof Leveling is still far too fast.

RogerDabbit

Fell dude, you're nothing but a worthless troll. You lie about everyone else here, you twist their words and misrepresent their arguments.

The proof in how pathetic your arguments are lies in how you cannot argue against what people are actually posting. You have to lie and twist words to try and make it seem like they're arguing something completely different.

You're utterly worthless to this community. Congrats on being my first ignore.

Fell

RogerDabbit I haven't misrepresented yours or anyone else's arguments-- though plenty of others have misrepresented mine. Nor is this the first time you've claimed to ignore me. Perhaps you should do so if you react so emotionally to those who disagree with you.

Vocis

Fell Feels like you could solve this problem for yourself by swan diving your character off a cliff and deleveling to your heart's content.

Fell

Vocis Feels like you could solve this problem for yourself by swan diving your character off a cliff and deleveling to your heart's content.

You've certainly proven my point about misrepresenting one's argument. Some games are designed for those with short attention spans. This game was intended for a more niche market.

Vocis

Fell I'm sorry, but I can only respond to what you say and not whatever idea you have in your head, but don't talk about.

Your stated concern was out leveling content. Or not being the right level for new content. I pointed out there are ways for you to address that. Other than just the obvious "roll an alt".

If you have a more in depth point I'll be glad to read it, but right now you haven't stated it. You've just stated concerns about the speed of something you have complete control over, while acting like you have none.

There is a fundamental flaw in your position you haven't attempted to address.

So perhaps you should focus that enormous attention span of yours on addressing that instead of making snide and insulting comments. If you are able to.

Fell

Vocis Your stated concern was out leveling content ... If you have a more in depth point I'll be glad to read it, but right now you haven't stated it.

You've failed to read the posts. Outleveling content was my rebuttal to the objection that "if I level slower, I'm be bored stiff spending so much time at one camp! My original point -- stated repeatedly throughout the thread -- was that fast, easy leveling cheapens the end result and the satisfaction from it. You can spend as much time walking to the corner Jiffy-Mart as you would a solo round-the-world hike -- as long as you turn around and return home the first 500 times you got there. Does that make both trips an identical achievement?

Vocis perhaps you should focus that enormous attention span of yours on addressing that instead of making snide and insulting comments. If you are able to.

Ah, but "dude you're nothing but a worthless troll" isn't snide and offending to you? Got it.

I do have a question for you though. What's the longest you've played an MMO in the past, in terms of hours played? Is it more than the 250 or so hours it'll take to level cap here? If so, there's an inherent hypocrisy in your own position.

Vocis

Fell
It sounds like you are making a choice to go in the fastest possible way, then complaining that you are going too fast.

You are making a choice, but then don't want the negative (to you) outcome of that choice.
This is not a problem this particular game can solve for you. There are many games out there that remove the negative choices your actions. One of them may be better suited for you.

Regardless: my central response that you are in complete control over something you are complaining about is not challenged. Nor can it really be because it is obviously true. You can choose to level slower, delevel, or roll and alt at any time.

The hiking metaphor is interesting because it falls apart if you think about it. Motor vehicles exist. People could use them instead of hiking. They choose not to because they want the different experience. You are choosing the motor vehicle then demanding the trail get longer because you want the experience of hiking on foot.

Again, this goes back to you having complete control over something, making a choice you later regret and then demanding the game undo your choices you now find inconvenient. Which the game does allow you to do! But you find unacceptable for... reasons?

The other guy hasn't responded to me. I'm not a moderator and I'm not going to jump into every thread and start randomly calling people out.

I do have a question for you though. What's the longest you've played an MMO in the past, in terms of hours played? Is it more than the 250 or so hours it'll take to level cap here? If so, there's an inherent hypocrisy in your own position.

I had dozens of days played in Everquest. I do not recall the exact amount 20 years later. But i was a progression raider from release to POP. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has racked up time in older MMOs.

Fell

Vocis It sounds like you are making a choice to go in the fastest possible way, then complaining that you are going too fast.

It sounds like you've made a poor assumption. If I was going in the fastest possible way, I'd be well over L50 now. Instead, I've spent a good 40+ hours exploring the new zones and wiping a few times in the process. Even when exp'ing, my average time at any one camp rarely exceeds a couple hours; last week, I did 6-7 difference named camps in one day.

But that's irrelevant. You're still missing the point. The issue isn't the chronological rate of progression, it's that the reward vs. effort equation gives too much reward for too little effort.

Vocis The hiking metaphor is interesting because it falls apart if you think about it. Motor vehicles exist. People could use them instead of hiking ... You are choosing the motor vehicle then demanding the trail get longer

Again you've failed to read plain English. I specifically stated hiking to that Jiffy-Mart, rather than driving. And no, hiking there is not the same level of commitment as backpacking around the wold.

Vocis had dozens of days played in Everquest.

Dozens of days? Most hardcore progression raiders had dozens of months of playtime. In any case, even just two dozen days is roughly twice what it'll take to max cap here. Since no real endgame content yet exists, what do you intend to do when you hit 60. Start the game over with a twink?

Vocis

Fell Again, I can only respond to what you say. Not whatever Platonic ideal is floating in your mind.

You keep talking about the speed, so I keep responding to speed.

was that fast, easy leveling cheapens the end result and the satisfaction from it.

Slower experience means we get more mileage out of the content that already exists.

Then there are those like you looking to burn through this game ASAP so you can move onto another one.

Even casual players are leveling very quickly

People that think the leveling speed fine are those who'll max and move on to one of the many, many other MMOs that have similar leveling speed.

Again you've failed to read plain English. I specifically stated hiking to that Jiffy-Mart, rather than driving. And no, hiking there is not the same level of commitment and achievement as backpacking around the wold

You keep saying the speed is too fast so you won't get enjoyment out of getting to the end of the trail. Yet you chose to take a four wheeler on a hiking trail, you see the end of it and now wish you had hiked it instead. This not a game problem.

If you feel it is too fast or easy I encourage you to play a hardcore character. Or just slow down. Or play in a way you find challenging.

Just like how some people walk places instead of taking their car. There are even people who take runs in circles when they have perfectly good motor vehicles. I hear there are even places where people lift heavy weights of iron instead of using simple machinery, just for the experience and benefits of it.

You are choosing to do things in a fast and easy manner. You are now on the forums asking the game to change to save you from yourself. Perhaps you should change yourself instead?

Fell

Vocis You keep saying the speed is too fast

It seems you're unable to argue honestly. I have a dozen posts saying the issue isn't chronological speed, but effort. In 1970s PnP DnD it was called the "Monte Haul Syndrome": people wanted too much reward for too little effort. It's a better game when loot is rare and leveling a hard, lengthy process. Do you realize that some people played a particular character for a DECADE or more without ever reaching max level? And that, in many of the MUDs this game is based on, leveling took years? But it seems you're only interested in arguing, not facts. The last 100 games you played you capped your toon quickly; you should be able to in this one as well.

You are now on the forums asking the game to save you from yourself. Perhaps you should change yourself instead?

Physician, heal thyself!

Vocis

Fell

It seems you're unable to argue honestly.

You seem to lack will to apply your enormous, bulging attention span to read more than a paragraph in and see where I addressed your newly stated point. Perhaps you should do so? Or is this too out of your control?

people wanted too much reward for too little effort.

The disagreement was over how much reward there should be. Everyone thought their accounting of it was correct. Eventually table top games realized this was true and made optional XP rules that allowed individual groups to dial in the progression they felt they needed. When people still thought this was outside of their controls the TTRPG devs threw up their hands and made it explicit that individual groups controlled progression.

Do you realize that some people played a particular character for a DECADE or more without ever reaching max level?

It would be very, very rare for this to be true. Most campaigns don't even last a year. But it isn't surprising either. Because tabletop tables are for more of a hangout sess than a game. And they're only played once a week (at best!) for a couple of hours. 30 sessions a year, 3 hours each and you've only got 90 hours of gameplay. Even less when you factor in beer runs and "oh man, I gotta tell you about this guy I ran into last week..."

Maybe that could be your way of adding challenge to the game. Only playing a few hours a week!

Physician, heal thyself!

I did, many many years ago. I had the same problem you do here. I refused to believe that I was in control of my actions because it was convenient for me at the time. I hope you can experience the same growth.

Daremx

Fell

I agree, fully. Made a post about this in the Feedback section.

Fell

Vocis It would be very, very rare for this to be true. Most campaigns don't even last a year

Hardly. Gygax himself played his character Mordenkainen for over a decade. And while D&D games are played only once or twice a week, you forgot that many early MUDs -- online continually -- required a year or more to level, and in early EQ, the game this is most based on, leveling was 2-3 times slower.

In any case, despite the wall of words personal attack, you've failed to address the topic. Some people want fast leveling; some people do not. MnM is targeting the latter: a niche games developed by Niche Worlds Cult.

Vocis

Fell

Go look up stats on D&D campaigns. More than half do not last a year.

Hardly. Gygax himself played his character Mordenkainen for over a decade.

Yes, some campaigns are not all campaigns. But there is a reason why those characters stood out. Most campaigns only last a few sessions before the real Final Boss: Scheduling.

Here is a reference to a writer who worked at D&D mentioning that their own internal tracking and polling was that most campaigns lasted 6 sessions or less:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/the-average-rpg-campaign-lasts-only-6-sessions/

This is basic knowledge to most TTRPG players. It should not be surprising to a veteran such as yourself.

and in early EQ, the game this is most based on, leveling was 2-3 times slower.

And as I stated earlier this game, even if it used literally identical values to release EQ would see players leveling much, much faster. Simply because we, the player base, know how to level much, much faster than we did in 1999.

This conflicts with your earlier statement that isn't about time. I would appreciate if you could clarify what exactly you're talking about.

In any case, despite the wall of words personal attack, you've failed to address the topic.

If you are reading hostility into what I am saying that is your choice and yours alone. Again: You are in control of your own actions.

Some people want fast leveling; some people do not. MnM is targeting the latter: a niche games developed by Niche Worlds Cult.

Again, I thought it wasn't about speed? Can you please clarify what exactly your complaint is?

Fell

Vocis Here is a reference to a writer who worked at D&D mentioning that their own internal tracking and polling was that most campaigns lasted 6 sessions or less:

I hope that was a joke. First of all, characters don't die nor even cap at the end of one campaign; they're often continued onto another. Secondly, that link refers to TTRPGs in general, and from the 2022 era, not the slower-paced 1990s style that MnM is aiming for. Third and most importantly, they noted the primary reason is that most campaigns fail for one reason or another -- not that people are completing them.

Vocis even if it used literally identical values to release EQ would see players leveling much, much faster. Simply because we, the player base, know how to level much, much faster than we did in 1999.

Quite literally absurd; but you're welcome to keep that illusion. All the basic group tactics we still use today developed within the first few weeks. But fights in earliest EQ required significant rest time after each, not just for mana, but melee stamina. Here, a group can chain pull nonstop for hours on end, and a melee can go balls-to-wall nonstop forever. Also, you lost much more exp when you died, and there was 95% res to take the sting off. And that's without even getting into the mob count required per level.

Vocis

Fell

All the basic group tactics we still use today developed within the first few weeks.

Your should parse this sentence closely and think about it some more.

Again: What is your complaint? You keep talking about time, yet when I point out ways to alleviate that problem you insist it is about your sense of pride and accomplishment.

When I point out you could run hardcore characters you stop responding. You could also challenge mode yourself.

You are choosing not to fix the issues your percieve then seeking to have the game changed instead. It just doesn't make sense. You have many solutions, you refuse to use them.

SociallyNot

Disagree leveling is fine where they are at as said below, choosing to balance level progression based on the 1 to 2% of people unemployed just seems like a waste of time and effort better spent elsewhere, I'm lvl 17 and have been playing two weeks. so that should not be of any concern to anyone who works full time and paces their selves who enjoy the game and not end game rush and go next.

Dalberon

Brettanomyces

How do you figure 300 to 500 hours? I've only gotten to level 30 in beta. That was in 4 man groups and we averaged a level every 3 hours of play, including hell levels. In EA we have a six man and are leveling even faster than that. I feel like the leveling is way too fast unless you try to do it solo or duo. We blow past content with our characters with groups. I suspect a dedicated six man group could hit max level in around 150 hours of play.

Fell

Vocis : What is your complaint? You keep talking about time, yet when I point out ways to alleviate that problem

Please stop the trolling. Intentionally wasting your in-game time, killing yourself to lose exp, or just not playing at all is not a solution to the game being too easy. You can spend a couple years writing a one page high school essay if you take a week break after every sentence. That doesn't make it a novel when you're done.

Vocis

Fell

Intentionally wasting your in-game time, killing yourself to lose exp, or just not playing at all is not a solution to the game being too easy

You said it was too fast, not that it was too easy.

If you're finding the game too easy please try hardcore mode.

« Previous Page Next Page »