Xilith First, thank you for finding common ground here and a constructive response, I appreciate it. I agree with your points on dps, and am not giving criticism for the sake of criticism. I have been enjoying the game tremendously, and appreciate and am thankful for all the hard work you guys have put into it.
I am trying to provide honest and useful feedback, and I hope none of it is taken personally. Honesty can sometimes come across harsh even if it is well intended. You guys have a ton of work to do, so don't have as many hours to put into playing the classes as we do.
I want to say that when I refer to damage here, as with many other responses, these are not dps related complaints. Complaining about dps is abstract and not useful, and I understand a lot of people put feedback in abstract and unactionable ways. I have been referring to ability mechanisms, and issues with how they will work with other in-game abilities and mechanisms. Sometimes damage is a part of that, like with 1kFists and lost attacks, which I think is fair and useful feedback.
In response to the rest:
I am using beastmaster for comparison because it is an updated class with overlapping stats and abilities. It is an update most people think was great, and has turned out really well. I do not think it is fair to say I am "misrepresenting beastmaster" because I was admittedly wrong about one half of one part of one ability.
Xilith Lick Wounds has a shorter cooldown but heals for 2/3 the amount and cannot be used if you have aggro due to being channeled
I'm very confused by this... They absolutely can use it while they have aggro, almost everyone of them does when they solo. They can also let their pet take aggro, or use a utility spell like Spider Root or Crocodile bite/root in order to use it during combat. There is no reason not to use it during combat, as it has a one minute cooldown so there is no real opportunity cost in doing so.
Does this mean we can't use 1k fists at all solo or as an "offtank"? It is channeled.
Do the proposed solutions involve keeping it channeled?
Pounce V. Flying Kick
I admit I was wrong about it modifying player move speed. My other issues remain. It has 2/3 the cooldown. Flying kick is damage + dex scaling, and pounce is simply 100% weapon ratio dmg. Pounce seems to do more damage, even from lower level beastmasters.
I'm pointing this out not as a dps complaint, but as feedback that Dex scaling values for these might need to be higher, otherwise weapon ratio will come out ahead every time and potentially scale better in the future.
Wind Style Thank you for this. I do think it should be slightly higher than Beastmaster's, even if not by much. Their aura affects the entire group, and ours is self only. It feels like a class specific self only spell should have higher efficacy than an entire aura, but that is just me. We also do not get sneak on it, so it would be nice. Either way this is a step forward.
**Moon Style** I have to take a minute to address this:
Xilith Additionally, the Moon bonuses are active even when doing corpse recovery when you have no AC to increase.
I think this is really important to think about as it relates to all future and past updates. This is the type of change I describe in my intersection or stair-step analogy. There is no measurable effect of this ability towards that outcome. These types of boosts and bonuses need to produce a measurable signal otherwise they are just noise.
Think about the scenario being described. You are a monk. You have FD, mend, stone stance, whirlwind kick, etc. You die. Despite all of those abilities How did it happen? Fd Fail? Sideways pull? Your group is going to get your body in that case. Did your group wipe (and you didn't fd)? How does aura this get the body back?
For Moon Stance to factor in at all here, you have to be getting attacked. If you are getting attacked where you died because FD failed, you are screwed, 5 more dodge won't do anything. If you get nuked for 1800 while gearless, 100% bonus dodge won't do anything.
And how do you get to the body if its in a combat zone? If we are taking so many hits that this ability comes into play, does that mean we are expected to be good at getting corpses by doing 10 micro trains and flopping until we get there?
Wouldn't it be more useful if one of our stances... had a built in sneak where mobs couldn't detect us from behind?
Monk V. Beastmaster (Ability Comparison)
Monk = [Slow Breathing] 80% reduced air consumption for 30m. Can't be used with other body abilities.
Beast = [Aquatic Affinity] 80% Reduced Air consumption and +20 Swimming for 1 Hour.
Monk = [Quivering Palm] 15s cooldown. First strike knocks enemy off-balance. 2nd strike reduces enemy damage 5%. 3rd Strike increases damage enemy takes by 5%.
Beast=[Howl of Dominance] Reduces enemy damage by 10%. Increases your damage by 10%.15s duration. 30second Cooldown.
Beast is the big winner here. The start of the fight is when the mob does the most damage as it isn't slowed, so 10% reduction off the bat is a nice boost to having one in the group. With 15s duration, these bonuses are active for 70% of a 45 second fight, or 50% of a 1minute fight.
The values of the beast skill are 2x, and the buildup time for the monk ability makes unrealistic for most group fights. Bear in mind, the monk should be leaving to pull another mob, so cant sit around waiting to stack.
Monk=[Mend] 30% HP recovery, increases AC by 25%. 5minute cooldown
Beast=[Lick Wounds] 5%HP recovered per second for 4 seconds, 1min Cooldown.
Lick wounds is the winner for several reasons.
33% Reduction in healing for 80% Reduction in cooldown. That is a heavily lopsided trade and the Cooldown is short enough that you don't have to worry about holding onto it.
The Mend AC bonus is not fully utilized. The context in which abilities are used is VERY important. Most of the time, you are holding on to mend in case of a FD fail. If FD fails, you you have to wait to be hit before using it, at which point FD is back up in 2-3 seconds. That is the window of peak mend AC bonus effectiveness in 95% of cases, 2-3 seconds.
Lick wounds can be used constantly while soloing. Even in emergencies. A mob or mob(s) would have to be capable of killing you in 20seconds or less in order to have you lose hp while channeling it. And that is before wisdom-scaling its value.
### Celestial Fist 6 v Enraging Strike 6
Monk = [Celestial Fist 6] 160% WR Dmg + 25-30&10% haste for 30s, 20s Cooldown.
Beast = [Enraging Strike] = 170% WR Dmg + 16Str/16Dex/16Agi for 30s, 10s Cooldown.
Beast = [Savage Strike] = 170% WR + 60-65, more if mob is bleeding. 10s shared CD with Enraging strike.
Beast wins this by a large margin. Given that in a 60s fight, they can use 6 strikes to 3 for a monk (without rk reset), they have a big advantage. Monk has to leave early to pull as well. Enraging strike's +48 total stat bonus is better than 10% attack speed in the majority of situations.
Round Kick vs Chop 6
Monk = [Round Kick 6] 140dmg, Chance to Reset Celestial Fist/1kFists 10s CD
Beast = [Chop 6] 275% Wr Dmg + 60. 10s CD. OR [Mangle 4] 275% WR Dmg = 50% healing reduction on mob.
Stone Stance vs Command: Protect
Monk= [Stone Stance] Reduces Physical Damage by 60% and immunity to stun for 15s, 5 minute cooldown.
Beast = [Command: Protect] 25% reduction to ALL damage for 30s, cooldown. Half of damage blocked is transferred to pet (12.5% total).
This is an interesting comparison. Beast is capable of having 25% reduction to all damage up perpetually, so long as pet stays above 25%. And he can heal the pet.
For the monk, stone stance is used most often when FD fails. Rarer use cases are offtanking briefly in sticky situations. Rarer still is while soloing a hard mob to to scrape through low level adds.
While stone stance can really help out and save you, command protect is also really nice, since it works on spell damage too.
Move Speed
Monk= [Fleet of Foot] 35% increase for 10s, 1min cooldown
Beast= [Hunters Chase] 100% increase for 1minute, 10min cooldown.
This is my favorite ability of the update. Not only is it good for pulling, but since I have been so disappointed I have found myself picking tradeskills back up or buying gear for alts, and sometimes you will be sitting at west bank and need to pick up an item from someone at North Bank.
These are both very useful. Monks is somewhat useful for pulling, though I wouldnt mind seeing the cooldown shortened to 45seconds, or the duration extended to 15 to make it better for just that purpose. 1minute can sometimes be just a little bit too long to feel fluid.
Auras vs Stances
Before any specifics.. Beastmaster has auras. Auras effect up to 6 people. Monks have stances, which only effect.. the monk. The effect of stances should be much more individually beneficial than auras, the current relationship between the two is illogical. A monk gets more out of being in a beastmaster's presence than it does from its own offensive stance. Does that make sense? Why do monks train or have stances if that is the case.
This is aimed at Predator Aura v. Sun Stance. Sun stance at 5 offence and Predator aura at 5 offence +16 agility (at 60) is wild. That aura adds to the entire group 30 offence and 96 agility. And the offence stance the martial artist dedicated his life to... gives him 6 offence.
It does not make sense for monks to have auras. **It makes sense for stances to be much more effective individual versions of auras. These are obviously similar mechanisms. They float above your hotbar in both case, and one has to cycle situationally between them.
** Monks should not get 96 agility, but they should get an order of magnitude or two more than aura's provide. The case is simple, the math is simple. For example, our wind stance gives us the same thing that an elementalist air pet gives an entire group. And I like the elementalist air pet auras, they are great. They provide consequence and weight to a choice. You know when they have one or the other.
What Monks have that Bst Doesn't
Feign Death
Disarm (this is good but where does it go on the spellbar?)
Pinning throw
Crit Discipline
AOE stun kick (useful for failed fd or interupt)
Decreasing food consumption for 25minutes
A random unpredictable self heal with low proc rate worth 1tic of bandaging
Ethereal Body (not sure if it shares a CD. Provides 4 more agility than Bst perpetual aura).
2hand strike = great for buying time to bandage yourself
Some of these are good ideas that need work, others are head scratches. I am leaving 1kFists and Cyclone staff off the list from now because of the state they are in.
I would love to see 2H strike briefly root instead of snare, so it is a better pulling tool. that way you can drag the mob you want further away from the rooted one and flop. The snare can sometimes cause the two mobs to recluster.
What Bst Has that Monk Doesn't
Fear Beasts
Lull Beasts
Beast Rez
Infravision Buff
Auras (+16agi 5 Offence)
....
....
A PET.
Pet utility includes: Attack slow. Root. Snare. Tanking. See Invis. (and more). This is not about pet dps, but about the mechanism of action: The pet attacks while they do other actions. They can haste the pet 40% and stat buff it, and it has a proc. Again, not about the damage, about the relationship of these abilities. If they pet is half their dmg, and they can haste it 40%, it is a hugely beneficial ability. That is effectively a self buff that increases their dmg by 10-20%, with any numbers plugged in to the values.
The pet allows them to handle an add, really well. Why isn't their role considered offtank like monk? They can have a tank pet, buff it, and heal it, and take a beating themselves with Command:protect. They are far more suited to this role than monk is.
Fear beasts just makes a great solo class even better at soloing. Monk has no one button solution for soloing any type of mob.
To close, I am using the Beastmaster as a reference point for a good and complete and satisfying kit, and drawing these comparisons to contextualize many of our issues and why we feel the way we do. Big steps forward have been made, but it still feels very incomplete.
I also don't think Beastmaster needs any sort of big nerf, I think you guys did a great job with them and they have a sweet and complete kit.
I would like to see monk have a similar weight and identity beyond being able to be horizontal without needing a rez.
