Elementalists need the root spell

Velthorian

the only form of CC That might be acceptable for a mage is a strong, swarm pet, that can be up at the same time as your main pet. Lots of hp and damage, 15-20 sec duration, high mana cost, low cast time. Ele's can mez elementals as well, and there will likely be spots, and level ranges to come where Ele will be ridiculously good against elementals. (fear, charm, mez in the kit, as well as +dmg to elementals on spells) I honestly don't struggle to much with chill on shield,(for 1-2 adds, 3 max) and kiting stuff around while pet works them down, or just pet tanking all 3 and camping out.

Phlyn

Kirrund good point we should remove it from more classes.

Kirrund

Velthorian Your experience at your current level is completely different from the majority of the time in the game.

Phlyn

Kirrund what level is required to have a decent understanding of the majority of the time in game?

Kirrund

Phlyn Probably at least a significant amount of time spent at 50+, over a wide variety of zones. The more hours in the game helps. Much of the stuff I see being talked about here isn't applicable past a certain point.

Fell

Elementalist is already one of the top soloing class in the game -- and you're asking to make soloing even easier and more risk free? If you need root and you don't want an earth pet up, team up with a class that has root!

Phlyn

Kirrund

thats a wild point of view to dismiss people with hundreds of hours of experience as irrelevant just because you disagree.

Kirrund

Phlyn It's more wild to think that hundreds of hours at level 20ish gameplay is applicable to how the game changes at higher levels. Because it does change.

Velthorian

Kirrund Fair enough, i'd say it's still "applicable" until it isent. ie, if it works from level 1-40 that's still something. And i have only played Ele to 20 so far, so I do appreciate your wider perspective. Still, Root? i don't think MNM wants rooting elementalist, it would really trivialize splitting camps solo.

Fell

@Kirrund, the basic principles don't change at higher levels. Root is a powerful CC ability: in many cases as good or even better than mez. Given elementalists already are a top soloing class with high utility in groups -- what abilities are you going to give up in exchange for root?

Kirrund

Velthorian It's not like necromancers can't already do the exact same thing. You know their pet is the same thing as an elementalist pet right? No 10% double attack aura, but the base stats are the same. And they have root. And Fear. And undead mez (more than half the mobs in the game are undead). Same pet heal (though Ele's is better now with the rework, but they have our old pet heal), same pet buffs.

Then you also have enchanters which can do the same thing again. And yes, even their animation pet is the same as the elementalist pet. Same base stats. Same max hits. Same quad hitting. Attack Speed Slow is a better debuff than any buff an elementalist can do, and their haste is better. It remains to be seen just how good the new attack speed slow, or how reliable it is, that elementalist got with the water pet, because no real data has been gathered.

This whole idea that an elementalist can't cast root because everquest magician didn't have it is just dumb, because we have diverted from everquest territory with many class changes.

Fell Elementalists are not any better of a soloer than the previous two mentioned pet classes. They are actually quite a bit worse at it, not just because of charm, but because of options. They don't offer more utility than either of those classes either. So why doesn't the enchanter have to summon a spell pet that can cast root if they want it? Why doesn't the necromancer have to use ghoul if it wants root? No, they just get those things for free, and they also get more things too. And they still get their pet, and they don't have to jump through hoops for it.

As far as what changes at higher levels, I was addressing Velthorian talking about his level 16 earth pet tanking 3 yellows. It can't tank for very long a single blue at level 60, depending on what it is, let alone two blues. You can argue basic principles all you want to, but the damage output and HP values of mobs go through the stratosphere at higher levels, and I know you know that, and singular damage output or hp value of a player doesn't keep up, nor does the pet. Therefore, things you can get away with at level 16 become irrelevant. I am aware root is good. Take it off the earth pet and give it something else useful that can let it tank. There's no logical reason for the class to not just be able to cast it since everyone else can, other than "Just because" or "That's just, like, how Everquest did it, man."

Fell

@Kirrund again a set of contradictory statements. Enchanters have root because they're a CC class. Elementalists are a DPS class. Necros have root because their secondary utily is limited CC, which includes undead mez/charm. Elementalists counter that with stronger and more versatile pets, the ability to give damage shields and mana regen, and the ability to summon a variety of useful items like weapons, bandages, food/water, etc. Tell you what -- we'll give you root and give necros all that. We'll even toss in FD. Hey, then we can rename both classes to necromentalist ... because they'll be the same class.

This is the SAME road that forum whiners have forced so many past MMOs down: classes start out differentiating, but after months and years of hearing "Class X can doing something my Class can't!" devs eventually wind up making all classes sort of good at pretty much everything.

Kirrund

Fell No contradictions provided by me. You simply ignored the crux of the argument. The pets have similar damage output and similar stats, and neither of the other two classes, one of which is a dps class, have to jump through hoops for a basic CC ability everyone else has.

If we're going to play your game about giving up stuff in trade, necros would also need to give up healthstones, cleric invulnerability, the higher damage spectre pet, self mana regen, self mana super regen at 60, mana transferral, lifetap, multiple dots, snare, generic fear. You did already list everything elementalists have, but decided to leave out all of the other utility necros have. Necros have far more abilities and use cases than elementalists have, and they can provide a ton of utility and support to a group, comparable to what an elementalist can do. The problem is the perception of the playerbase that they can't do those things, and also that they have so many good things they simply cannot fit them all on their bar at all times. Elementalist does not have that first world problem.

Khadyn

An Elementalist's class defining ability is the ability to choose from a selection of pets that match the needs of the encounter they are part of. A quote from the deep dive "This update leans harder into that partnership: your companion isn't just backup anymore, it's a real part of how your own spells work."

The elemental pet is a part of the core design meaning just as other classes have to choose which spells to add to their limited ability bar based on the encounter so too the elementalist needs to choose which pet to add based on the encounter.

You can't just slot your favorite pet that does the most damage because you want to pew pew and your ego demands you be "top" of the dps charts. The game is about teamwork and using the right tools for the situation at hand.

If you want a pet that provides some utility to the group you slot a water pet for their group mana buff. If you want CC you slot the earth pet for their root and provoke. An elementalist can send the earth pet to taunt a mob (as another form of CC) that might be beating on the healer or any other squishy while the tank is concentrating on his job.

Core abilites are all part of the 'give and take' when choosing which to use in any given situation. The devs have a vision. They have explained it well in their deep dive.

Kirrund

Khadyn "This update leans harder into that partnership: your companion isn't just backup anymore, it's a real part of how your own spells work." Yeah that would be cool, if that had been what was delivered. Nice sentiment, but the pets are the same as they were before, and the same problems as before still exist.

TexKSAH

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if your want to root then send (non-earth) pet in, how is that any different than just keeping taunt on which all ELE pets have?

TexKSAH

Unless, what you are asking for is to root/disable one or more mobs then sic your pet on "another" mob. That would be a HUGE boon to ELE, not a minor thing just because the root spell is a minor spell.

Kirrund

TexKSAH You seem to be under the impression that elemental pets can tank for any significant amount of time past 50+. I just think it's reasonable as a caster to have a CC option that is extremely common, that is not tied to a pet that nobody uses, and instead give that pet something to make it useful and worth using. But then again, they didn't touch the useless/underused pets in the rework, even though they should have data on this, and those same problems still exist. You will continue to see only air elemental, and depending on how good the blast effect is with the water pet, water pet more so than before but still not as much as air pet. Fire pet and earth pet won't be used.

If you've ever played a necro or an enchanter and used those pets and thought to yourself "Damn, this pet sure is fragile!" it's the exact same with the elemental pets at all of those levels. They are the same. The earth pet is less fragile as it has more base hps, but it's not significantly less fragile because of the increased damage output mobs do as you get higher up.

TexKSAH

Kirrund I'm not under any impression, just trying to understand. You want to root then send pet in? Why not just taunt? You want to root as CC on other mobs while you and your pet kills one? MASSIVE BOON to ELE, not trivial. You could easily break a camp of 3-4 even con mobs with root. Stop hiding that behind "it would help groups if I could CC too"!

TexKSAH

TexKSAH Now, 50+, that may not be possible, but until then, ELE could solo to 50 faster that a hound dog picks up the sent of a dog in heat. And then after 50, root is probalby not the desired CC method, but my highest is 45, so not sure.

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