Elementalists need the root spell

Kirrund

TexKSAH If you're referring to soloing, I'm not talking about it, though obviously it would help to have a CC spell and still be able to use whatever pet you want. Soloing is not good past a certain point on elementalist, you'll be grouping to level up and it'll be a million times faster.

If you're going to ask this question though, considering breaking a camp of 3-4 even con mobs, what level are we talking about in this hypothetical soloing situation? Define the terms. I appreciate you trying to give a good faith engagement but please don't troll me with saying I'm trying to hide behind something. I've made my explanations very clear.

TexKSAH Now, 50+, that may not be possible, but until then, ELE could solo to 50 faster that a hound dog picks up the sent of a dog in heat. And then after 50, root is probalby not the desired CC method, but my highest is 45, so not sure.

Editing my post since you answered after I posted. So, first off, you'd still level faster with a group, that's a fact. Elementalist doesn't have the killing efficiency to surpass grouping by soloing. Second, just by nature of using the earth pet plus snare, you could already break up these camps if you so desired, but you will almost certainly run out of mana long before you were ever able to kill 4 white con mobs in the game's current incarnation. . Shifting castable root from the earth pet to the Ele themselves wouldn't change this. As far as root being a desired CC method, it's a staple and common place CC choice throughout all uses of the game and remains useful. That's also why it should be on the caster, because it's so common and perhaps the most basic CC tool there is, and everyone else gets it.

You've still not given a reason why those other two classes with pets can do it, but elementalist can't. Their pets are the same. Necromancers and enchanters have the same camp breaking power that's far better and safer than elementalist. Their soloing power is far better. Why is root tied to a single pet and it's not for them? Necromancer even gets a second pet with root. How does that make sense?

Is there something I missed? Would you like to know more?

TexKSAH

Kirrund My ELE can do it at 8 with dark blues without root. I would think with root, I could do it almost to 50. Maybe just dark blues past 40, but still WAY OVERPOWERED for soloing. And I have yet to be in a group with any of my toons where SOMEONE doesnt already have CC even if just root. So I don't see the need to enhance ELE soloing ability with a spell many already have in groups.

Kirrund

TexKSAH It's about consistency. It's a single CC option. And quite frankly, level 8 is useless data. A lot of classes can do all sorts of crazy stuff at level 8 that doesn't matter for how things settle in the end. I think if you play an elementalist in EA you'll find things are not going to work out how you think when soloing. Mob HP and damage output have been inflated quite a lot after a certain point. There is nothing overpowered about any soloing capability of an elementalist in the current version of the game. Save that term for charm effects, which is something that is actually overpowered (and no, I don't care if it gets nerfed or not.)

TexKSAH

Kirrund Again, since I have never been in a group where someone didnt already have root or better CC ever, I don't see where giving it to ELE would do anything other than boosting their solo ability. Nobody needs the ELE to CC in a group.

And obviously soloing gets harder the higher you level for EVERYONE, but it's all reletive. If you give a MASSIVE boost to ELE soloing at level 8, their soloing at levle 50 will be better as well.

Kirrund

TexKSAH Do we care if we boost their solo ability? Does that matter? Is it going to change anything and somehow tip the scales to be out of control? You keep bringing it up, but I don't see why it matters. I could not disagree with you more that it would create this

TexKSAH MASSIVE boost to ELE soloing

that you think it will.

But what it would do is the Ele COULD be needed to CC In a group, if they were in a group where the classes that might cast root are busy with other jobs. Kind of like how Inquisitor can do multiple roles based on what's needed. Just having the option to be able to do it, while still providing the utility of the pets would be a step towards offering that class vision of pets with a toolkit. Give the earth pet something else to use, like a shield it can cast on the tank or someone who is dying.

And again, consistency.

TexKSAH

Kirrund With that logic, why not give ELE heals incase the healer is ever busy? You could say that for just about anything. But that is not a valid use case (just because others have it and might be busy) for the ELE having root. ELE has things other casters don't. Should they get those then as well to make everything consistant? Where does it stop.

To me, and I know it's only level 8, the ELE is pretty sweet and playable. Great DPS in groups, solo very well. Options for tank, utility or DPS pet depending on the situation. Even with DPS or Util pet, I can easily keep pet alive with pet heal on even con or higher solo pulls. I just think if I had root, I would never group because I could do group content without anyone else. At least for now.

Kirrund

TexKSAH

TexKSAH With that logic, why not give ELE heals incase the healer is ever busy? You could say that for just about anything. But that is not a valid use case (just because others have it and might be busy) for the ELE having root. ELE has things other casters don't. Should they get those then as well to make everything consistant? Where does it stop.

I agree with you they shouldn't have cleric heal, but this is a fallacy. I argued for root, something in their wheelhouse and something that makes sense for the class to be able to cast, given that it's earth magic and they use elemental spells and that they're the only caster in the game that can't themselves cast any form of CC, but are not significantly more powerful for being unable to do so. I stated reasons for why it's poorly implemented tied to the earth pet.

TexKSAH To me, and I know it's only level 8, the ELE is pretty sweet and playable. Great DPS in groups, solo very well. Options for tank, utility or DPS pet depending on the situation. Even with DPS or Util pet, I can easily keep pet alive with pet heal on even con or higher solo pulls. I just think if I had root, I would never group because I could do group content without anyone else. At least for now.

Well, I'm glad you're having fun with it. You're still mistaken. I don't need to convince you for it to be true. I don't know if I have the energy to explain to you things that only become obvious when you've put more hours into the class. I've put over 800 hours into it and done almost everything there is to do currently in game, including raiding targets before and after changes. Other elementalists who have multiple level 60 Eles across alpha and beta share my sentiments across the class overall, and aren't happy with the "rework." We aren't legion, but there are more unhappy than not. Perhaps, just maybe, some of us know a thing or two and our experience and passion has value over someone who has leveled the class to 8 and developed perceptions about how they think things might be. I don't mean to demean your own experience, it has value where appropriate, but one thing is just not the same as the other.

Zaroua

Khadyn You can't just slot your favorite pet that does the most damage because you want to pew pew and your ego demands you be "top" of the dps charts. The game is about teamwork and using the right tools for the situation at hand.

If you want a pet that provides some utility to the group you slot a water pet for their group mana buff. If you want CC you slot the earth pet for their root and provoke. An elementalist can send the earth pet to taunt a mob (as another form of CC) that might be beating on the healer or any other squishy while the tank is concentrating on his job.

Core abilites are all part of the 'give and take' when choosing which to use in any given situation. The devs have a vision. They have explained it well in their deep dive.

Kirrund "This update leans harder into that partnership: your companion isn't just backup anymore, it's a real part of how your own spells work." Yeah that would be cool, if that had been what was delivered.

You're both right.

Kirrund that is not tied to a pet that nobody uses

That's user error. Your group needs the CC, use your CC pet. This is the equivalent of a WoW Warlock whining about not being able to polymorph while he's not using his succubus and the group isn't pulling far enough back for Fear.

Kirrund That's also why it should be on the caster, because it's so common and perhaps the most basic CC tool there is, and everyone else gets it.

Design issue. Too many classes have access to root. Get rid of it on Paladin and Shaman. Rangers will probably lose theirs as part of their rework.

Kirrund You've still not given a reason why those other two classes with pets can do it, but elementalist can't.

They're support oriented. Elementalist is more DPS oriented.

TexKSAH With that logic, why not give ELE heals incase the healer is ever busy? You could say that for just about anything. But that is not a valid use case (just because others have it and might be busy) for the ELE having root. ELE has things other casters don't. Should they get those then as well to make everything consistant? Where does it stop.

This sentiment is spot on. You can't have an arms race because another class gets a toy your class your class doesn't have/has a weaker version of. Oh but Paladins have Root, Fighters and Shadow Knights should have Root too. Necromancers can transfer health and mana, I think Shadow Knights and Rangers should get that too. Bards get to move super fast, Monks and Rangers need it to compete. Monks can off-tank, why can't Rogues and Rangers? This happens in every MMO, and I hope the devs know better than to cave in greedy demands like this.

TexKSAH

Kirrund And yet everyone on this thread disagrees with you. You don't have to convince me of anything. I agree with everyone else.

Kirrund

TexKSAH They're also, conveniently, a bunch of players who haven't played the class to any significant degree. Interesting.

Zaroua Everything he said

No.

Fell

@Kirrund if you think your pet can't tank at 50+, you're doing it wrong. I've been in a number of groups where necro/mage pets replaced the tank. And if you're talking about grouping, no one has ever said "let's not invite that high-DPS elementalist because he don't have root."

Your basis premise that "because a lot of other classes can do this, we should too!" is flawed to the core, and leads to class homogenization. There are a few classes that should LOSE root, not gain it.

Nyx

I think its worth considering giving Elementalist some form of CC, they have very little in the way of that.

I see how Wizards get an AOE snare that lasts for several minutes. And Druids get single target snares that last for even longer. Then you have classes with Mez/Stun and AOE Mez/Stun. I don't see any classes with AOE Root. I think it would be a fantastic part of the Ele kit to give their Earth pet the combo spell cast to do the AOE root.

If we were able to use a spell on our pet to cast an AOE root from the Earth elemental that would be an interesting way to utilize them in group settings instead of trying to make them just be a tanky pet. Give them the ability to off tank, aoe root, etc.

Give Fire pets the ability to be our highest DPS for group settings. Currently Ele end up having to use Air pet or Water pet because they do the most dmg or have the best mana regen. Those are both useful utility things to have in a group. But I would like to see them get more utility instead of trying to make them into more of a DPS. They already took away the nuking capabilities of the Ele. So replace those with some utility please. Once again I do not care what Everquest did, or what any other game did. The devs have stated they are making their own game and I am in support of that and would like to see them come up with creative ideas for the class that isn't just a copy of what some other game did, and I think that they too are looking to do that, they want to make their own game.

Raybane

Kirrund You haven't even given a reason why Elementalist needs and deserves root. All you have said is that you want it and that you think it wont break the game. Those are rather weak arguments.

Velthorian

really can't speak for later, but in my recent playthrough of Necro to 12, and Ele to 20, the ele was far stronger the entire time. it was not close. That will likely change post necro re-work. Even from level 1, the ele pets where dramatically better then the necro pet, both in damage output, utility, and tankyness. it gets even more ridiculous at level 16 with empowerment. I'll refrain from arguing with Kirr about 50+ as i just don't have the experience up there. Perhaps the solution, is to tweak pets 50+ if they are not performing, instead of giving us completely new abilities. Min max effciency, use fire pet and double DS when you can, use earth pet chaining against hard targets, kite adds, aggro camp adds, medidate no longer requires catching ticks, so cycle sit and auto attack between weapon delay. you still gain almost a full tick's worth of mana while getting free hits in, bandage pet constantly, re-summon them when it makes sense. They are currently very strong up to 20 for sure. Their nukes need work tho, nuking for 10 at level 11 and 40 at level 19 feels wrong. Fire pet with double DS is ridiculously efficient on targets 1-3 levels below. Fire for blue fodder (my fav playstyle, little to no healing beyond empower/bandage) Water for white con's (your gonna have to heal, so may as well get mana regen), and chain casting earth pets on yellow/red cons. I only use air in melee groups.

Kirrund

Raybane Completely untrue. Go read the posts.

Velthorian You don't even have half the kit of the necro by 12. Missing a lot of things. They have so many things to get, they continue to get new abilities all the way to 60.

Fell

@Nyx

I think its worth considering giving Elementalist some form of CC, they have very little in the way of that.

Absolutely! And enchanters need group heals, of course ... and why in the world can rogues not resurrect people? It makes no sense!

Velthorian

Kirrund and yet, the ele is more potent and more powerful, currently in that level range. By a significant margin. Damage shield efficiency really eats up any fear/dot mechanics. I'ts stupidly efficient damage. paired with infinite bandages, forget it. You gotta pick soft targets. You want to see a cinder beetle bytes firepet for 1 dmg, and takes 10 in return, spammed. Aggro free, unresistable damage is highly underrated.

Nyx

Fell I've read your posts. I think you're just not wanting to discuss game design and instead would rather spout off what your preferences are.

Elementalist lost damage from removing the nukes, I think root would be cool, but I think giving them more combination effects with their pet that other classes in the game dont have would be even more interesting. How about instead of just spouting off sarcastic nonsense you try to talk real game design instead? Or do you only have the one dimension?

Kirrund

Velthorian It all changes later on, if you continue. You'll just have to trust me. Necromancer is far more powerful than Elementalist at soloing. All you need to do is look at the abilities and compare them to see.

Velthorian

Kirrund This was the common wisdom in everquest as well. I still prefered Magician there. Your forgeting a few things, yes mages don't have FD, or Root, they can't Root rott, and must bear the brunt of melee attacks. They also are extremely potent in tight quarters. Don't need space to work, you can park a mage in a corner and fight monsters right by the wall, try that on a necro. I can park my mage at any nook and crany in the SGS Quarry and pick and choose my targets without fear of kiting them into adds that have to be delt with. If i do get an add that i can't handle, i just camp out, no big deal. You can't play a mage like a Necro, you must choose different targets. ele's excel at destroying light blue and blue targets, traditionally. Leveraging damage shields to the max, this is where their efficiency comes from. It can match/beat a necro in it's niche. If the scaling is so busted 50+, that is a separate issue that should be dealt with in it's own right. I can chain earth pets all day long, with about 3 feet of space to work with. Was taking down yellow and red cinder beetles at level 14 this way, then at 16 with empowerment, it got laughably easy. Fast casting swarm pets can be highly effective at CC for short burst, it worked quite well in everquest. (Raging Servant) my 16-20 run was the easiest so far, maybe in total, it went by shockingly fast. just absolutely destroying cinder beetles, left quarry at 19 when they greened out.

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